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11.1.2017 - Kingdom Hearts RP is now closed. We'd like to thank everyone who invested time on the site for contributing to a wonderful experience which lasted for many years. All stories must eventually end, but while this may seem bittersweet, it can't be stressed enough what a pleasure it was to create and share them with you all. Goodbye everyone.


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Hoshiko
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Jojo made a poll yesterday asking whether or not people liked competitive or story systems. Looking at the results made me realize something. While discussions are important and something I value, not everybody wants to enter in a public forum like that. They may not want their opinion to be dismissed or they simply might not have the time to enter it. Just because a few people value it doesn't mean we should force it to be the deciding factor. So, here's something of a redux of the last discussion topic about changing the site. Something that hopefully leaves everybody in their comfort zone.

We can change to a story system if every current active member of the site agrees to it. This can either be for the change or just not caring about it. However, if a single person disagrees and doesn't want the change to go through, it won't.

An active member is somebody who has gotten their character approved and who I consider is active. By my estimate, there are about twenty active members on the site.

If you don't want to put yourself out there even though you disagree, please privately message me or Newo. Neither of us will judge or dismiss your opinion, and we will even post it for you so you can remain anonymous. You may also just message us that you do agree with the change if you want.


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Newo
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hit my dms ;)

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Hoshiko
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In the case that everybody currently does want to switch to a story system, I wanted to make a final argument against it.

A story system is not rewarding. You start with everything. You have all the tools available to craft the story that you want to tell. This means that you don't get anything for writing the story, except satisfaction as well as the enjoyment of the people who were involved.

A story system tends to be inclusive and clique. This will always be an issue no matter what system, but I think it's something more prevalent in a story system. People can get attached to each other after RPing together and write future stories around their characters, leaving little opportunity for others to participate. Topics wind up being private because it's intimate between characters, or the open topics are hard to join because the characters are already so close-knit.

A story system requires motivation. You often need an arc planned out for your character, and being the nature of this site, that may not always go the way you want it to. This, among other things, can cause you to lose motivation. You may go weeks without posting because you lost your muse, leaving those people you were RPing with hanging, which is unfair to them.

A story system is more niche. A competitive system can work for both those who want to compete/fight and those who want to tell their story. While with the latter, you have to work to get powerful rather than starting off at endgame off the bat, but it's still achievable. With out current system, you can reach endgame without having a single fight. However, in a story system, there is no opportunity for competitive fighting. There is no third party to set a standard for what abilities are allowed, so there is no balance. This will turn away people who like competitive fighting.

Also, things to keep in mind if we do switch to a story system:
- You will still have to post your weapons and abilities, though they won't need to be approved. This is for documentation purposes.
- There will be a power ceiling. Nobody will be able to be a god or have limitless power. We will likely use the same stats to measure power, as well as limitations (example: nobody can have all maxed out stats).
- There will be no consistent site plot going on, due to the limitations of staff being human and also bad at writing, so if you can't think of a plot for your character, you will have to think of something else (such as collaborating with another RPer).
- For a story system to be successful, collaboration is crucial. Make your stories accessible to anybody, welcome any new member. Talk to each other about where you want to take your characters.

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Newo
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Even if only 99% of people wanted the story system, you should prioritize the current community over the potential community. Growth is important, but so it not chasing away current members, who have spent years on the website. Dedicated members are rare, which is why returning members are so valuable. They've shown some commitment, even if intermittent.

A competitive system is only rewarding in one, specific way. And having such a rigid, yet complex system is unintuitive and only benefits people who are good at manipulating those systems. Not to mention, the systems are inherently flawed and anti-competition, as there aren't health points, a limit in actions, or true balance. It's just a convoluted way to limit people, while still trying to give them 'freedom.' And people who prefer those systems usually have other motives than collaborative writing with their peers in the community, i.e Olek not wanting to be 'another face in the crowd.' And this mentality is only reinforced by competitive systems, where having power forces people to acknowledge you in a topic out of fear for their characters.

The worst of the non-inclusive cliques were in competitive systems where powerful members purposefully killed off 'noobs' because 'ayyy lmao.' Mirage Hearts is the only example you really have of an arguably more inclusive clique, but it was less volatile to the community. And you aren't accounting for their circumstances. They weren't trying to grow their community.

All roleplay sites require motivation. Even in a competitive system, we've had people go inactive and 'lose their muse.' Blaming it on the system is misguided, and really, it's a callout to Tsumi. And, once again, it's ignoring her circumstance.
She was the most active on KH, when she had a lot of different people to roleplay with, but went inactive on MH, where she had a group dedicated to talking about all of their stories. No matter how much you enjoy writing with the same group of people, eventually it'll exhaust you. Especially if you've already talked about all the ideas you want to roleplay.

I also disagree that you often need an arc. The benefit of roleplaying sites is that you don't need an arc. You just create a character and can have them grow based on the unplanned character interactions you have with other people.

Because there wasn't a true combative system, the way combat works in the current system is similar to how it works in story but with less rules. It's still a dick measuring contest, because there aren't clear limitations of when the fight is truly over. Our current system is built in a way to just satiate ego.

I just fundamentally disagree with the thesis of your argument and how truly 'competitive' most competitive systems are in the first place.

But I do agree, documenting what people have and defining/limiting the power scale is necessary for a story system.

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Hoshiko
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Comparing to MH isn't really off base though, because that community is largely this community. But other than that, I don't have any response since you either had valid points or it's a difference of opinion.

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Newo
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Context matters. When you're handed a dead website with a bad reputation, you have limited options.

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Hugo Dupont
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"A story system is not rewarding."

This entirely depends on your perception of rewarding. I would argue that, if anything, it is more rewarding because you get to write the story that you want, free from mostly arbitrary limitations. This form of writing isn't a video game, and we shouldn't be trying to emulate the progression of one in a context where it doesn't really work.

"A story system tends to be inclusive and clique."

This is, in my experience, much worse in competitive systems on this site. I don't know how long ago you joined, but when I did the cliques, power divide and group mentality was a massive barrier to entry. In story systems you are judged primarily on your character and how you write, which while still not ideal for people who aren't the best writers, is better and easier to penetrate than what competitive has been.

"A story system requires motivation."

This is true of any form of writing, and isn't limited to a story system. What you call 'motivation' (becoming more powerful) others may call a burden and limitation on their creativity.


Basically, I don't think any of your concerns are limited to a story system, or even worse in one. Even fighting can be just as competitive in a story system, albeit not as limited.

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Annalise
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"However, if a single person disagrees and doesn't want the change to go through, it won't."

This doesn't make any sense nor does it seem fair, to have people discuss and put their opinion up, if all it takes is one person to say "no," in some sort of glorified manner to make this all null and void. A majority votes sort of system seems more sensible in this case, since it values the opinions and actual, active head count of members here.

As for my stance on the matter at hand, I agree with Newo and Hugo. Story systems are a lot more inviting when it comes to allowing new and veteran roleplayers alike, assimilate into the universe/world you're building. Additionally, if there's a power ceiling of some sort (like you've mentioned) then all you really need to worry about, is if someone is trying to abuse the creative freedom of the site. That can happen in any system, mind you. From past discussions there seems to be a general consensus that story is preferred, even if the choice is stylistic.

Another point to touch upon is "motivation." A text-based, collaborative writing site shouldn't have "power" as the driving, motivational force. This just creates linear, cookie-cutter, shounen-esque story plots or characters that just feel bland. I know that kills my motivation when I'm role-playing with a Sasuke cardboard cut-out. What the aim should be, is something that captures the attention of the writers on site and holds it there, which in this case is the story system. Just because one person won't have the drive to, "be the number 1 hokage (keyblade master in this case)," because someone can make a character just as powerful, doesn't mean the idea shouldn't take hold if everyone else agrees on the story system.

Competitive fights have and always will be, a dick waving contest. I have come and gone from several sites and have been proving correct on that assumption. A competitive system cannot be perfect unless there's a bunch of numbers involved, something that not everyone wants to work with. Conflict is a crucial part of character development, however, it doesn't always need to be physical it can be mental, emotional, a combination of either, or whatever it is that'd help your character grow. You don't grow as a writer if all you're worried about is a word count, because then you're not focusing on anything other than adding fluff to your material. I'm not saying everyone does that but I am saying a good majority of people do. You don't always need a large scale fight to prove how good you are at roleplaying, because what it all comes down to is how well you develop the character over time.

I may have stumbled over my argument a bit and may have some redundancies in them, so I apologize ahead of time if I do. But my stance is to make it story system.

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Newo
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Hoshiko wrote: However, if a single person disagrees and doesn't want the change to go through, it won't.

It also isn't fair to those who prefer the competitive system, as it peer pressures the minority to being 'okay' with it, as to not have the majority of the site against them. It should either be left up to the majority, if you're not willing to take responsibility as the owner.

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Kitanai
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Hmm. So what do I think? scratch I know from personal experience that a story based system can create lack of incentive, as there was a site I was on and when it was competitive it was booming with members, however when it was based on story, people would join and then become absent. Not to say that it would happen would this site, but just speaking on possibilities.

The thing about the competitive system is that its complex and very technical which can be annoying. But it has to be, because without having all the details, it won't work right. But even with all the details and numbers a person puts in a system, they can never accommodate for every situation. However a game can, because its displaying it in real time, and its system is absolute; but this is not a game.

In my opinion, the only way to effectively run a competitive system and to be genuinely called fair, at least in fights is to have a third person such as a referee in a way that determines if a hit goes through or not, to prevent argument. I am not suggesting we do that here though, as that is a lot of work; but I'm just making it aware that that is the only way for a competitive system to effectively run, at least from what I know. Because if its between two people, like Newo said, people can argue.

Sooo I honestly don't know what would be better...I'm a competitive person so I like the fact of having all these technical things to give myself the upper hand against someone else. But at the same time, I know how complicated a competitive system is, so I wouldn't necessarily advise it.

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Snaz Laka
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Chimera
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I don't know what necessarily to add to the discussion that Hugo and Newo haven't already touched on besides agreeing with them. Especially the part about the story system being more rewarding, as I am someone who enjoys the story aspect more so than the competitive. The first thing I started thinking about was what story I want to tell with my character.

On a text-based site, I find that to be the most important thing for me. Not sure how others feel. I definitely agree with Newo's statement on the peer pressure thing, too. Setting limitations, enforcing courtesy and building towards community will help cultivate a good story-based roleplay community.

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