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Post by Kasturi on October 2nd 2012, 2:13 am

Alright, to start off there is this person that once is a discussion said (if I remember correctly):
"Everyone who had dual-wield almost always dual wield,"

Its mostly quite true to those who uses swords and whatnot. Its fun, but maybe we can make it more fun by adding a new variable.

So the idea is:
what if we make a special class for two handed weapons
that can only be used if you have dual wield.

For example, this weapon can be twice as heavy and deals twice the damage as a normal sword would, but you cannot so much as just carry it with one hand. You need both hands on the heavy weapon to attack or even to block, either that or it'll lie limp and useless in your hand, better off drop it and pull out another weapon. Also as stated you can only use it if you have dual wield.

Hopefully with these kind of advantages we can have a variable use for dual wield and not used for, just, dual wield, and so people have more choices in how to progress their character battle strength wise... instead of just dual wielding.

For balancing purposes we can make it so these heavy weapons cannot be summonable, since its heavy and no one wants letting one sword hit them only to find it changed suddenly to a heavy sword.

So, any thoughts?

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Post by Adrian King on October 2nd 2012, 4:27 am

Well, like glaives and greatswords?

Obviously, sometimes if the momentum is just right you could be able to use just one hand.

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Post by Kasturi on October 2nd 2012, 6:41 am

reality wise speaking yes you can use it one handed by playing with momentum, but glaives and greatswords is not the purpose or point of this suggestion.

It is the use of power of both hands on one weapon.

See it this way; throwing one uppercut with one hand, or throwing a double uppercut with both hands at same time, which is more stronger?

You can only use one hand at a time if you don't have dual wield correct?
excluding spells and forms.
Dual wield should allow you to use power of both hands on one weapon. A weapon that is equivalent to two, one-hand weapons.

You can have a glaive or greatsword used by one hand, and another used by both hands, but to expect same level of performances in strength and power wouldn't be correct is it?



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Post by Jorehz on October 2nd 2012, 7:13 am

For some reason, this reminds of my "Ultra Greatswords" from Dark Souls... Which are essentially swords about the size of you and are nearly impossible to use single handed (they are also so slow when used single handed that you might as well not bother). I support this idea, of course. As it is, it seems things like this would just be classed under "Normal weaponary", assuming you could convince the staff to let you keep it.

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Post by Yima on October 2nd 2012, 7:55 am

If you make an item that says 200% normal damage you aren't going to get it but if you just make a big weapon your are likely going to get that; heck if what you wanted was pyramid head's knife you really just need to craft it and hopefully be able to wield it.

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Post by Jorehz on October 2nd 2012, 8:00 am

Yima wrote:If you make an item that says 200% normal damage you aren't going to get it but if you just make a big weapon your are likely going to get that; heck if what you wanted was pyramid head's knife you really just need to craft it and hopefully be able to wield it.

I think the point of this is to allow "Heavier" weapons along with dual wielding, to give people greater variety and reason to reach the post count. Heavier weapons like, as you mentioned, Pyramid Head's "Knife". It seems odd to have the strength and ability to wield such weapons long before you can use weapons in both hands. I don't think the point was "200% normal damage", as it would just be logical that bigger, heavier weapons would pack a larger punch.

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Post by Yima on October 2nd 2012, 8:59 am

I agree with you there the 200% was meant to be a opposite end of the scale example of what I meant but it makes sense for larger weapons to deal more with their weight and momentum so it works.

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Post by Vic on October 2nd 2012, 9:24 am

I do not agree with this at all, if you want to use heavier weapon's then use umm deal with the heaviness.....

OR get the Metal Element and take care of that

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Post by Kasturi on October 2nd 2012, 10:16 am

You deal with the heaviness by sacrificing your dual wield for not being able to dual wield.
But you can only deal as much as two arms can handle. More than that and it'll go to your speed.

Yes you can use heavier weapons with one arm but for it to reach 200% damage that one arm will be mighty slow.

The only way to reach 200% without losing speed is by dual wield. That's why most people dual wield when they get dual wield, you can dish out twice the amount of attack. When you fought enough of anyone 500+ posts and above you'll always see dual blades, which is easily noticeable. Almost everyone's a Kirito.

The idea is to offer another choice, which is wield a heavy one that can deal 200% without losing speed. You sacrifice your dual wield instead since you're fully using both arms, which obviously half your capable amount of blocking attacks. Its a new choice pathway besides of dual wield.


Plus I got Metal. I don't need dual wield to carry the pyramid head's knife. ^^

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Post by Vic on October 2nd 2012, 11:36 am

Or you make an echantment or a spell where you take advantage over your mastery of weapons and even then this seems kinda silly then again I'm biased right now sooo ya lol personally I say if you have metal this can be taken care of easily for those who don't I think this is where being strong in muscle wise so you could pick these up would kick in but that's just me

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Post by Balendin8 on October 2nd 2012, 12:36 pm

I think I am missing what you are trying to say. As it currently stands you can use two handed weapons as soon as you have your character. I have seen people with greatswords, spears, nodachis, and even big buster sword sized stuff. Obviously your character would have to be strength based to use them the most effectively. If someone takes a direct slash to the torso from a greatsword or from a lighter blade; it is the greatsword that is typically doing more damage.

If you are suggesting the site adds a built in mechanic that gives extra bonuses to two handed weapon wielders, I would personally be against it. Each weapon and fighting style has its strengths and weaknesses and a character should have to deal with their choices.

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Post by Kasturi on October 2nd 2012, 12:56 pm

1. So is it fine if I make a two hand weapon that is twice as heavy as an average sword and deals twice the power and damage too?
(And with same speed as average sword of course since I'm using both hands to lift it, the weight is distributed as one hand per regular sword.)

Don't misunderstand this suggestion as a way to carry a heavier weapon. Personally my OC can carry ANY heavy metal weapon he wish for, by magic, so I don't mind.
What I'm suggesting is that two hand weapons should be twice as stronger as one hand weapon given strength and all other factors are the same. And to concentrate power of both hands on one weapon takes skills too, that's why I'm suggesting only dual wielders will get this perk.

2. As for sword styles, someone can triple wield using his mouth like Zorro from One Piece I don't mind. What I'm suggesting is an alternative style that is on par with double wielding in terms of DPS (Damage Rate).

Tell me all the persons who have dual wield but doesn't use dual wield?
(aside from mages, Lenneth doesn't count.)

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Post by Shirou on October 2nd 2012, 1:51 pm

So, you're basically saying that just because a weapon is heavy, it does 2x damage?

If so, than no, that's not how it works. Heavy weapons differ from a normal, lighter weapon because of their weight. Since it's heavy and sharp, it's going to naturally deal more damage than a regular, one-handed sword. The damage weapons do are based on physics. If you want a heavy weapon, yes it will do more damage, but it will make you slower and it will require two hands. But that's not because it's fair in terms of dual wielding, it's because that's how it actually works.

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Post by Kasturi on October 2nd 2012, 1:56 pm

You got it wrong Shirou.

Its because:
1. the weapon is twice as heavy as a sword
2. the weapon is swung by both hands
that they deal damage same as two one handed swords.

OR the weapon can be same weight as a sword then because I swing it with both arms instead of one it should go twice as fast but damage as one regular sword. 1+1=2.

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Post by Adrian King on October 2nd 2012, 2:51 pm

I suggest there be an upgrade for two-handed weapons that gives it an equal edge to dual-weild.

One-handed --> Dual-weild

Two-Handed ---> More in-depth two-handed or the ability to wield it a bit easier.

In my perspective a two-handed weapon would be like 1.2 or 1.3x more damage-savvy. Anybody can have two-handed, but there needs to be an equivalent boost.

What I think we should have is a more diverse weapon-system gain than Dual-weild. Maybe even have different levels of it.

For example:

500 posts:
-Dual Weild Adept
-Adept Two-Handed
-Adept Mage
and so on

1500 posts: Expert level

2500: Master level

Or maybe 500: Adept 1000: Expert 1500: Master

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Post by Shirou on October 2nd 2012, 3:26 pm

There will be no weapon boosts. If you want a boost for your weapon, make an enchantment. However, as dual-wielding currently has no power boosts, it wouldn't make sense to just give two-handed weapons boosts. Weapons are just regular weapons. That's it. You have katana, it acts like a katana. You have a great sword, it acts like a great sword. Any modifications means a means of magic, which would then be classified under either spells or enchantments.

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Post by Adrian King on October 2nd 2012, 4:22 pm

I didn't mean actual boosts.

I don't think a literal boost would be Adept.

No, that is more like a rank of skill.

But the main point is that there should be more diversity. Meaning things other than Dual-wield. The boosts aren't ACTUALLY boosts, btw. They just mean you now have a higher skill at that point. Not sure if I am wording correctly what I mean. Anyways, what about at certain points for mages their secondary or tertiary magics become stronger? Like, secondary being a B-rank level of magic it would then be B+. Or Tertiary goes from C or C- to C+ or C.

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Post by Hikari on October 2nd 2012, 5:07 pm

In my opinon, making them non-summonable will do nothing. The more obvious change would be that they're slower then normal weapons, and then again I don't really think this changes anything. From what I understand everyone can dual wield now with no limits, so there would be no changes from keeping it the same. If someone uses a warhammer even if we changed it to this, they're going to be able to use a warhammer from the start. Also how we got to magic from heavy weapons is beyond me, but I'm saying no to that as well. Mages are already getting a CRAP TON of advantages compared to warriors and speedsters. In fact, wouldn't that make warriors basicully a useless class? We gain almost nothing from magic regenrating, and I say we keep our secondary and tertiary elements the same.

Not to say any of these changes are bad, nor to say the mages are getting a huge upperhand. However allowing only them the ability to enhance their secondary and tertiary ability, is somewhat unfair. If this goes through I want to see everyone getting their elements stronger, not just a mage.

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Post by Kasturi on October 2nd 2012, 9:46 pm

Do any of you guys study physics? If no, here's a crash course ^^
force = mass x acceleration
acceleration = force/mass

if you have 30kg mass sword and you apply say 750N (1 hand)
the acceleration is 25m/s-2
the momentum is 750
if you have 60kg mass sword and you apply say 750x2N (2 hands)
the acceleration is 25m/s-2
the momentum is 1500

any difference in speed/acceleration?
any difference in attack power/momentum?
You don't need PhD to do this. I wish this will be integrated to the system, cause it makes sense.
And since you need the hand coordination to apply same force with both hands, I suggest only dual wielders can do this.

http://www.calctool.org/CALC/phys/newtonian/fma -Newton's 2nd Law
http://easycalculation.com/physics/classical-physics/momentum-velocity.php -Momentum Calc

Plus if my strength allow me to carry a spear, then dual wield should allow me to dual wield/ carry 2 spears at one time.
If people like Black Knight whose a power house and can carry a warhammer in one hand, then dual wield will allow him double that weight.
His maximum weight strength is way above my maximum weight strength.
He most probably can carry a Buster Sword but I can't even using both my hands. Questions?

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Post by Adrian King on October 3rd 2012, 4:33 am

Obviously momentum is the reason heavier swords strike harder.

Anyways, my point was is that if not all people use Dual-wield, what use would it be to them?

Just saying, I just thought of Sieghart from Grand Chase and his conjuction sword Soluna, y'know the gladius and greatsword that are put together and can be split apart.

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Post by Kasturi on October 3rd 2012, 4:55 am

Kotor wrote:I aced AP Physics, for the record.
So do I. But I guess I already proved that a couple ofl times.

1.
Kotor wrote:
Kasturi wrote:(And with same speed as average sword of course since I'm using both hands to lift it, the weight is distributed as one hand per regular sword.)
Hell no. They won't have the same speed, because they would take longer to accelerate. They do more damage due to their slower deceleration with the target having the same resistance. You are the one with it wrong, Kast, and don't take offense to this...
Kasturi wrote:if you have 30kg mass sword and you apply say 750N (1 hand)
the acceleration is 25m/s-2
the momentum is 750
if you have 60kg mass sword and you apply say 750x2N (2 hands)
the acceleration is 25m/s-2
the momentum is 1500.
Proved to you its possible. Don't take offense.


2.
Kotor wrote:What I'm saying is that there doesn't need to be a new rule or modification for this, because it is already more or less in effect. The difference is that you won't always be applying the same force with both hands. You will be flailing your arms about, while attacking. That is why the object takes longer to start moving. You won't be applying double the force all the time. Your arms aren't perfect machines, repeating the same thing over and over, always at the same force, speed, acceleration, etc., and neither is your body. Everything is circumstantial, not a perfect problem on a work sheet. It doesn't take a PhD to know that real life, though it follows the laws of physics, doesn't always stay consistent throughout even identical experiments. As any scientist knows, the mere observation of an experiment changes the outcome. That alone shows how finicky the forces you're trying to explain with are, even if they are still followed. Twice the damage won't happen every time by a two handed sword, just like every strike won't hit the same every time.
We were talking about theory-wise. If you want to go circumstantial, then everything is circumstantial. A mage could suddenly fail to cast a spell, and a warrior might accidentally slipped on a banana.
You know there's nothing circumstantial in rp unless the rper made it so. OR the situation is already like that.

3.
Kotor wrote:The reason dual-wielding takes a post count is because (and I'm talking from RL experience) it takes a LOT of finesse to wield two weapons at once.
Kasturi wrote:And to concentrate power of both hands on one weapon takes skills too, that's why I'm suggesting only dual wielders will get this perk.
Kasturi wrote:And since you need the hand coordination to apply same force with both hands, I suggest only dual wielders can do this.
I've repeated this, and to make it easier: the reason of dual wield skill requirement is to reduces those "circumstantial" and "flailing of arms".
If you can control both arms for two swords, then you can control two arms for one sword.

4.
Drakar wrote:Anyways, my point was is that if not all people use Dual-wield, what use would it be to them?
Why would "all people use Dual-wield"? Why can't there be an alternative as strong as Dual Wield?

All I ask for is an alternative with same DPS, and I proved theoretically its possible.

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Post by Adrian King on October 3rd 2012, 5:15 am

Which is why there should be more diversity than just Dual-Wield.

What is difficult about it is that there needs to be good ideas as to how they get it.

Maybe non-Dual-Wield warriors can have a tier higher skill level with their fighting style than they did before. So that Dual-Wield and One-Blade people can be on par. Obviously to do so one would have to block or be agile.

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