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Post by Shirou on September 9th 2012, 11:32 am

Abused as in complicated, big, and dangerous spells using an element you barely have control over.

And yes, any overpowered or godmoddy spells will be filtered in approvals. It's just that, people will be trying their darnedest to attempt to get past that and trying anyways.

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Post by Paleo Ansem on September 9th 2012, 11:36 am

exactly what shirou said as well

Its not the fact that they would get approved its the fact that they'd be put up cool, and then people try to debate about why they can have it and eventually when proven wrong they get mad.

Already happens dont need more of it.

Especially with those elements.

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Post by Hikari on September 9th 2012, 12:02 pm

Ah I see what you guys are saying, but I still say we bring them back. But just as learning elements. If they were canons or what not I suppose it'd be fine but with learning elements things are far safer. From what I'm think, the stronger the element, the better effects are in a magic based way regarding those elements. If people wanted to create insane spells with those in that case, and only had it as their learning, there would be limits to what they could do which would stop them from creating uber OP spells and getting mad once they were denied.

Plus we could put up a post limit for learning if you want to make the argument that newer members wouldn't understand and would post them only to get mad. So that way they would most likely take the time to research what you can and can't do, than by the time they choose a learning element, they won't post OP spells.

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Post by Paleo Ansem on September 9th 2012, 12:10 pm

Post limit would be worthless a learning element is a learning meaning the no matter the post count no matter the training topic you will never fully understand it.

if a post count was given that would make to believe that automatically would mean in the mind i may create the elaborate spells since i worked my way up to it.

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Post by Hikari on September 9th 2012, 12:16 pm

What about learning elements in general though? I support both, but I still think learning elements has a higher impact than the restricted elements.

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Post by Lenneth on September 9th 2012, 12:28 pm

In regards to restricted elements the process of it being debated and possible being denied and then they get upset is always the case with any approval regardless of what the actually it is. The fact that yes these have a high probability of being not understand to the restrains of fairness in creations doesn't not mean it should not be given a fair chance to be tried, talked about and not given to the ones that could understand and will not abuse it simply because of the possible hardship in dealing with it, as with the case of even cannons able to use it, if they can even attempted a character with it at all then it is then possible to be used correctly already. In terms of getting it that in itself will be a challenge and test for those want one of the big three, which also can include as what they might plan for such new skill branches, much like it can be seen who is capable of using our name sake weapons, keyblades.

As much abuse as the three can offer it in reality can be said with any type of creativity. If they don't get something and get upset over it well its then not understood enough by the person in question, these are the most watched for a reason and if even attempted to applied for it there already should be a understanding that is placed in the staff's judgement.

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Post by Paleo Ansem on September 9th 2012, 1:05 pm

The only reason a canon would get it is due to canon rights the character has the right to the element or thing UNLESS it goes against general site policy when given it i mean they would have to tread extremely lightly and automatically arent getting any complex spells despite mastery. Once more its simply a perk due to the fact that you Chose to be a canon and you earned you get their good with their bad. As well if given a learning element the fact of the matter is if these are unrestricted this site would immiediately be

trying for time
trying for time
trying for time
trying for illusion
trying for space
X70 trying for time

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Post by Hikari on September 9th 2012, 1:14 pm

So it's a bad thing to have some people use the same elements? We myswell restrict light and darkness as well as nothingness in that case Ansem, since those are pretty much elements that are used A LOT. No offense, but that point just seems a bit stupid to me.

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Post by Lenneth on September 9th 2012, 1:22 pm

How many have darkness, nothingness or other common stuff just like you said. Its the same case with anything again to be used correctly is a different matter and people would still be getting the good with the bad again.

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Post by Paleo Ansem on September 9th 2012, 1:32 pm

Light darkness and nothingness will be common because once more everyone is a good guy or a bad guy most people feel as a good guy they need light or as a bad guy they need darkness. all nobodies feel as though they need nothingness due to the fact that they are nobodies. Light darkness and nothingness are raw energies each these are what most of the Big elaborate or heavy duty spell comes from that cannot be changed they are main element s and usually other elements are chosen.

From light creates the shadow which is within the center of the void.

each one is a raw energy which is used for stuff not derived from elemental elements which usually after one chooses light darkness or nothingness.

Or rather they'll chose two raw energy element or possibly all three pointless to me but maybe not the person that does it.



THe situations for space, time, and illusion are by far different due to the fact these are not raw energies nor are they elemental elements.


Last edited by Ansemthegreat on September 9th 2012, 1:37 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Etzolix on September 9th 2012, 1:35 pm

There would obviously be restrictions implemented, Ansem. Just because they would be up for potential use does not make them easy to get in the slightest.

I had in mind a post count they must first require, then an RP sample(that could be equivalent of a Dive to Heart or could just be an RP sample within the approval) that must impress the majority of the staff (more heavily than one would for canon simply because canons can be revoked more easily due to having more than just approvals to revoke them), then there would also be limited tries that you can attempt for in order to go for the restricted elements.
Meaning, you would try once for a restricted element and if you don't pass then that means you can't attempt for a restricted element regardless which you attempted for. However, they would be allowed to try to for other nonrestricted elements and infinite amount of times but they would actually be learning from someone.

Not to mention they can easily be revoked if there is a constantly attempted abuse by the member with the element. I don't see how difficult of an issue this would be to moderate considering we already have to moderate other things with just as much potential to be godmodded. Also, I don't think everyone would go for it because they wouldn't want to try to use something they don't necessarily understand.

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Post by Lenneth on September 9th 2012, 1:38 pm

Explain how it could be different with the case with those three



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Post by Paleo Ansem on September 9th 2012, 1:43 pm

To add what you just said is to add a post count it would have to be higher then the usual high i dont meant the usual 3000 i mean not until one hits 290mp and up due to the fact that the big guy including you and me and others who are currently big simply would be able to try out due to high post count which has already been made.

THat can be done however said person could argue its due to personal reason completely misdirecting the fact that it isnt once more due to this anger and tension happens. While yes we have to moderate things that do have potential to be godmodded, honestly it is far easier to godmod with time illusion and space. hence why they are restricted unless canon rights.

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Post by Paleo Ansem on September 9th 2012, 1:45 pm

What you just asked for Lenneth was edited into my first post if that doesnt suffice i will elaborate further

Apologies for the double post only reason was to simply respond to question.

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Post by Etzolix on September 9th 2012, 1:47 pm

You could've edited it into your previous post. Refrain from doing so again.
I expect more of the staff.

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Post by Lenneth on September 9th 2012, 1:49 pm

That seems more of theory to why they should do something one way to rather then practical use for anothers

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Post by Paleo Ansem on September 9th 2012, 1:57 pm

Personal theory? All three light darkness and nothingness is raw energy hence why those three are the only elements in order to get a proper negation spell. The other elemental elements could not while only those three could due to the fact that they are raw energies All three of them most complex spells if not all have one of these elements and as well most people will go that way with it due to to the fact that once more most character will give their character one of these raw energies an then two elemental elements

Too say that they are the same as other elemental elements wouldnt make sense due to the fact that they are different, even through kh logic kingdom treats those elements differently then others .

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Post by Etzolix on September 9th 2012, 2:07 pm

Other elements can find ways to get negation spells of their own, however, I will note the operating word, "proper" that you had used.
That is not what this discussion is for but I felt it need to be clarified so people don't feel restricted in believe those elements are the only ones that could possible negate magic.

Also, elemental choice is completely up to the person and there isn't necessarily a formula but more so you noting trends.

Truthfully, I don't even understand your particular argument against the restricted elements so if you could reiterate in a more coherent way it would be much appreciated.

Another thing I don't see why you're opposed to so much is the mana regain. It'd be the same as going to sleep in a topic and gaining your stamina the next day and while yes you could just make a new topic the same argument could be made that you could just post in the topic that was already made.

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Post by Paleo Ansem on September 9th 2012, 2:23 pm

Once more it trends I never said that you had to have one of these raw energies not once did i say that as well Ive always been against those three elements ya you could argue

Wait ansem you have space

The only thing ive used space so far for is simply flight and flight alone truthfully. THere is no complex nothing with it.

All three were taken out for a reason there abusive. Hell the smallest spells with time would have to be Considered due to the fact that youre messing with time itself.

Once more they were outlawed to general and pretty much only way to get them was to simply apply for a canon character who has restrictions with the element. Meanwhile a custom character may go any which way with the element despite the fact it'd be a learning element. The ole THIS BASES AROUND THE PLOT OF MY CUSTOM CHARACTER argument may be used which in the past it has with other things. to say it wont here would just be a flat out lie

My point or main arguement is this you've chosen to be a custom character youre restricted to these elements Im all for the idea of the learning elements however the only reason i see a reason for any of those three elements to be used would Simply be to me WELL THEY HAVE THEM why cant i, canons when first created to their end have to apply by certain rules which in case you havent noticed custom characters do not have to due to the fact there custom they can change at any point in time due to the fact that they are custom there story is ther own while canons have to follow what has been set for them if not the character is taken unless After a long period of time you've made the character their own. WHich cannot be said for many since once more 95% Of this site is custom.

If this is hard or not coherent enough to understand then wait until i get on skype later and i will explain

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Post by Lenneth on September 9th 2012, 2:31 pm

So because cannon characters are harder to get and their story is less able to be interrupted they should get something extra no one else should ever have access to even if they can work just as hard to get said perks as an rp sample for a cannon and follow their own set of restrictions of their own story as well

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Post by Paleo Ansem on September 9th 2012, 2:53 pm

The point is when a canon character messes up big time in that way despite working or not Thor character is removed while with a custom the worst you get is simply don't do that and you lose the chance the point is canon currently already have restrictions and frankly unless a custom is GIVEN that restriction they don't follow it and when given the restriction they complain a though it's a punishment

A canon has to follow the element accordingly despite the way they wanta go while a custom during their hard work may just during that hardworking create it just the way they how they need it in order to use any of the three restricted

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Post by Balendin8 on September 9th 2012, 4:42 pm

I say yes to the stuff Etz said originally.

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Post by ReinaKaitlynn on September 9th 2012, 6:20 pm

Skipping over the entire conversation, because I'm just lazy like that. If there are repeat statements I am sorry.
The original proposal is interesting, but I do have some minor ifs about it.
One, is learning gained from the get-go on new characters?
Two, Vets gunna get one for free, just to add on, or are we stuck with three?
Three, It's not mandatory I know, but doesn't this seem to reduce the uniqueness of each character just a bit? I mean there are alot of elements. I mean -alot-. Especially with the inclusion of the restricted elements (Which I will be very readily learning btw), but that's also one more element that everyone has to further get closer to everyone else's abilities, we might start to see more clone spells as a result... just saying....

One more gripe I have is that already I can't think of anyone off the top of my head without light, darkness, or nothingness. Are these going to be debuffed? They are very versatile, and really they can do many things more than I think they ought to. I understand this particular issue doesn't tie into the fourth element discussion, but since we are discussing them now anyways....

Another thing I need to ask is about molten and the now ridden twilight. Are they going to have the previous effect of stacking into themselves? Where if you had darkness and light, and twilight all at once, they all buff? I recall that being a sort of power. Molten is earth and fire or metal and fire if I'm not mistaken, so it counts here too....


Oh right, last question. How are you going to work time so that it won't be abused? Because a max mage using a 300 MP spell, even if it is their bad element, should probably be able to reset a topic. That's just some bs. So again, I have to see what you're going to do about that. I can see abuse for all three of the banned elements, but time is the most abusable.


Again sorry for redundant statements or questions, but I'm not going to read 4 pages of bickering, as indicated by the posts above mine....
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That said I am for the idea, I understand that moderators can filter bad or OP stuff... but there's only so much you can do with some of them that aren't OP.
I trust the mods to filter it out, but I am the most abusable of all people, and I can promise if I got my hands on time, I'd never get anything worth using past approval... hence why I'd use space... but I digress.....

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Post by Etzolix on September 9th 2012, 6:54 pm

Next time be sure to read the topic so you understand what's going on.

And for the learning element you would have to actually learn them from someone with the same element the same way you would portalling minus the free getting portalling at 3500 posts.

There would probably be an 4000-8000 post count (being discussed by the staff since some think 8000 is too high and others think not and etc) minimum to attempt to get a restricted element which you can still be denied for.

And so what if people have clone abilities? It won't stop regardless. Once there is a good idea it spreads hence the negation spells that have been popping up once popularized.

I don't see why they have to be debuffed? They are essentially raw energy with certain real life qualities such as flash effects or making room dark effects.

The molten and twilight thing if it did ever exist doesn't anymore.

Obviously, the time ability is unbelievably overpowered and unfair and there are many ways to make it fair if you know how to. However, we aren't here to tell you every single way it can be used fairly but examples will be made if this goes through.

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Post by ReinaKaitlynn on September 9th 2012, 8:33 pm

Noted, will do "Sir" >_>

If it has to be learned, how can we circulate them to begin with anyways?

That actually sounds like a reasonable range tbh....

I know it won't, I just felt like now everyone will be trying to get one of these new three. And as a result, just like darkness and light, they can do everything with them, but I also expected alot of common abilities too.... I wasn't really trying to say stop because of that, it was kind of one of my offhanded comments....

They are raw energy, but really they are more versatile than the other elements imo. Maybe I just haven't seen creative enough use of "Ink" yet, but the other elements feel more restricted than light, nothing, and darkness tbh. I only mention it because I don't think there is a single person without at least one of the holy trinity (Even me).

It did exist... I can promise you that. Just had to ask.

Well okay, I do trust your judgement, just reminding you that it seems OPish....
Although with.... well let's put it like this....
Spoiler:
with 3D, they set some rules in place for time. Like to go back, one of "You" has to be there. And that it was for a limited time duration. And I can see things like this being a help, but as was mentioned earlier (Yes I read it this time) you can only go so far before someone looks into Final Fantasy and tries to get Stop as a spell, which is technically a valid KH spell too....

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