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Yes or No?

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Total Votes : 22

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Post by Lenneth on August 28th 2012, 11:26 am

I’m am here today to openly discuss the concept of regaining lost mp though out the rpg and how it would benefit or not help, everyone with more interesting and my intend will be to add this concept to the site.

Now in the past we have all grown used to rpging in battles here where no matter how much mp we spent during the thread will lose it for the entire adventure, which in truth I found the concept rather strange in that because not only does it limited the creative aspect of writing but also makes it a little more stressful to put any decent action into your post since most of us would be very concerned in saving or mp for more large scale attacks or rather defending against other attacks. Plus without the use of our magic/skill points the basis of what we could do would be very restricted to just hacking, slashes blocking which even creative manners in which people came perform them I myself find it a little tiring and some might be at a clear disadvantage to not being well embody with the stats for it. The which for the most part would be relatively boring after a page our two.

If we were allowed to slowly gain back out powers like in the second kingdom hearts game there would be room enough for us to use more detailed manometers and attacks and would expanded the level of creative people use to make spells, skills or summons without the fear never being able to use them when they need it, of course those would again be look after though the mods and admin to insure non-god modding behaviour. I don't intent for it to make battles or spars and endless wait for abilities and spamming attacks that would be the range of wait posts, after attacks for endless bouts but rather letting us not just  solely rely on physical attacks as default attacks.  

Even the concept of limited mp in the first kingdom hearts give some lax to regaining what was lost during the adventure thought other methods.

The upfront idea I present to the amount would we be allowed to gain back would be 10 mp gained per five post (not max increase just what you gain back after what you lost) which would allow us to use all of our created armaments with time to still pay for using higher level type attacks while at the same time not abusing it to the put of endless fights of flash.

Now I open the floor the voices of all the members of the site, older gen, new comers, mods and of course Admins. This idea is only to per sway the upper powers to invoke thought and offer the other members their thoughts and reasons and if by chance they might chose so to place this privilege on us.


Last edited by Yima on April 2nd 2014, 2:13 pm; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : Stickied)

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Post by Leo on August 28th 2012, 11:30 am

I feel like this would actually be a good idea. It would help in longer RP topics and such, and like you said would allow the users to be a bit more creative and not worry so much about trying to save their MP for later.

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Post by Lenneth on August 28th 2012, 11:32 am

forgot to add the poll >.> added now minor note, if your going to vote in the sugget at least try and give a reason why or why not for disscution sake

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Post by Zakai on August 28th 2012, 1:54 pm

I've been on sites where a mp regaining method has been a big help to the fights on the site. People were able to use spells to help defend or attack and the next post, if they didn't use any magic during this post, was able to gain 5mp back. However if they used magic in the post then no mp regain was given. It didn't seem to have any kind of negative to it and seemed very fair for all involved. I think it would be cool to add it on this site and at least see what happens. If it proves to be a bad idea then we can simply remove the system and go back to how things were. All in all I think it's worth a try

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Post by Paleo Ansem on August 28th 2012, 2:11 pm

Waiting to see more opinion's on this until own is expressed, cannot speak for the rest of the staff, however it's more likely the same their waiting on that.

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Post by Hikari on August 28th 2012, 2:28 pm

I'd love to see this happen, but I really can't support this. I'm fine if it gets accepted though sadly I have to be aganist it. Why? Well because it simply can easily be abused, even if not on purpose. I'm not saying anybody would abuse it however if people can regain MP and have a high enough mana attack or some pretty devasting spells... What's to stop them from using that to their advantage? I'm a gamer and the same rules apply for most of us. If we as gamers are given some kind of tool or power devasting enough we're going to use it. Unlike this system though gamers DON'T have the ability to do this a lot. Summoning a dragon in Skyrim once a day or calling in a Reaper in COD will happen very rarely, but think about how OP mages could become! We have some pretty powerful mages and giving them a gateway to glory would put them all over us! Magic based charries could spam their most powerful spells, not having to worry about losing their MP because it can grow back! No one would stand a chance aganist them! Of course I don't see any mages doing this but I can't tell you there's a 100% chance they wouldn't sadly. Back to the whole gamer weapons discussion I'll continue my example. You see like I said gamers will use an ultimate weapon to their advantage if they have it in their disposal, imagine them having an easy way to access that once more! They'd be unstoppable, why would it be any different for mages? Although I love this idea I sadly can't support it, as in the wrong hands it could be a tool that would give them a far bigger upperhand than they already have.

Of course I can see it helping warriors as well but most warrior charries don't revolve around spells. While some may enjoy using spells from time to time such as myself, we typically don't have a lot of magic so it'd be kind of useless to us. Maybe that's why I wouldn't understand though I seriosuly could see this becoming a bit too good for us in the future. I don't see anyone abusing it like I said before but there's always a chance somebody would.

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Post by Lenneth on August 28th 2012, 2:38 pm

True though i do see that even though mages regain their mana it can be very slow and minaminal amount. If say in posts they already use their strongest stuff and think they'll get it back so fast well thats why I suggest a massive wait to gain it back and its quite low.

If a mage blew all their mana and the person is still there then they got around 5 posts to do something to the drained out mage gains like 1/30 of their normal abilities back at best. The person fighting them should really have done something to stop them by that time


Last edited by Lenneth/Hrist on August 28th 2012, 2:40 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Trent on August 28th 2012, 2:39 pm

+1 to the idea.

Though I would rather see ten posts per five mp or something like that.

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Post by Arianne Rose on August 28th 2012, 2:44 pm

I have mixed feelings on this...RPs are meant to end at some point, and two people on equal footing fighting one another already take a long time as it is.

I do like the idea of not having to completely and utterly panic whenever I lose all my MP in a topic. However, I always thought that was the idea of a limited MP span---strategy. You have to really think about what you're going to use, and plan ahead just in case that something doesn't work. That's always been the beauty of it, I thought.

I do think Magical-based characters should have abilities like this. It's honestly not fair to them, since they are not quite as good in the physical attack department, but are forced to be because eventually--they run out of MP. This isn't fair to them, and I do think that if a person is mainly a caster, they should have some kind of advantage to make up for the fact they can't hack and slash worth a damn.

((Yay for being a magic fencer-type fighter...best of both worlds, ftw.))

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Post by Azmot on August 28th 2012, 5:08 pm

Ah, a response to Cool.

Alright. "Being a gamer" analogy was not too great because that you voided the most important part. In all video games, to my knowledge, there is always a way to regain MP, regardless of the instance. Which, in my opinion, makes me want to root for the other side, and I voted for a "yes".

However.

I don't want it to take the strategy of having a limited amount of MP. So I'm super on the edge, like, in buttsex range. I honestly don't know how to refute this for the people who deserve it, like Lenny, but for people who don't necessarily need it, like... Etzolix?

So yeah, either way, I'm happy. However, if some sort of MP system is in place, that would be cool, too.
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Post by Hikari on August 28th 2012, 5:19 pm

That wasn't the point though Az, though I have to admit I'm impressed you discovered a flaw so easily. The point was it would give more members a way to use devasting spells. In games where you regain MP, you don't have spells that would kill off an entire horde of enemies with a flick of your wrist. When you do it takes time to reuse the spells but with ones devasting that don't have a time in our roleplaying site it would just end up as an easy way to glory, simple as that.

But I digress, I just can't support the idea... I mean literaly, I already voted no so I can't change my answer. But I'm not going aganist it either, I just really can't support it.

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Post by ReinaKaitlynn on August 28th 2012, 7:07 pm

As biased as I am towards supporting mages, I can't help but support the idea as a whole. BUT, and this is an extreme but, the offset must be of equal value. The entire purpose of non regen MP was, of course, to keep battles from dragging. And if you think about it, that's a good thing. But if we analyse more closely, non regening MP does technically hinder both sides, but if a mage and a swordsman were of equal power, and it was a matter of draw out, the swordsman would win, just by surviving.
Now I know that's incredibly situational, and that there is already a small counterbalance in.place. We as mages gain more access to complicated spells, allowing us a degree of control against almost any foe. And in a way it is functional, except for one thing that sticks out to me. Isn't it odd that (I hate to have to use specific people to point this out, but it seems valid) etz for all his lack of magical prowess, not only has MORE mp than most mages, but also has an array of spells to completely say f*** you to anything we do? And what's left is a magicless mage fighting a dextrous guy who can likely kill you in.your absence of power. If I may, a better solution might be to simply alter the MP.cap according to.magical prowess. The problem with that though is it requires the re-introduction of the stats system for accurate measurements. So, as another proposal to consider, you can.try giving mages permission to create a passive enchantment to regen MP like that, which does limit their slots for fairness and allows for that creative touch in.RP to not be hindered as easily by.the MP limit.
One last idea (and I'm borrowing this from a spell I was designing) is to drain health in.exchange for mana as well. With special spells or enchantments to allow such a thing of course.... anyways, those are my ideas. Excuse the random periods too, I'm on my phone... hard to type on.it...

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Post by Shirou on August 28th 2012, 8:05 pm

A note*: Keep in mind, having MP regeneration means having a consequence as well. The current drawback of using MP is not having access to it for the rest of the topic. Regenerating it would get rid of that drawback, and tip the scale.

*This does not reflect the opinions of the Staff. Just an important detail to consider.

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Post by Etzolix on August 28th 2012, 8:19 pm

A quick note while I may use magic to work against mages do you know how little it would affect a warrior? While I do have more magic that's not because I started off with it but because of the posts of being here. You can argue because I'm staff I get it more easily well people such Lenneth, Jet, Morph, Yima and Ansem too have been staff in the past or currently and that has contributed to some more than others. Even so, do you know how little my magic does against a warrior type? The hardest fights for me would Morph and Ansem because the fact that they have magic effects them. While my magic is used to fight mages for the most part it has little effects on warriors and that's the trade of for focusing on negation magic. Also, if a mage wants to see the upper class spells are take a look at Lenneths higher cost spells. Etzolix while able to negate magic will never be able to make something as complicated as Lenneth and if I tried then something that is 90 for him would probably be around 150 for me. As well as while I have negation magic it is used specifically for that where some people make physical shields that ALSO protect against the equivalents worth of magic.

If there are any mistakes or words missing I was posting from my phone so excuse those.

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Post by Paleo Ansem on August 28th 2012, 8:52 pm

Honestly this seems like a flat out plus more to mages, especially since warriors just got hit with an update on their power level, on all their front's. Honestly I see people bringing up Etz, when he's basically focusing all his slot's on just that towards negation, but it seems that not being brought up only his max mp and what not. Also not to mention that both lenneth, morpheus, as well have negation spells. Note, that mages aren't just good with magic and can have physical strength, hence Lenneth, honestly the only mages is because you focus too much your magic and not of your strength. You can excel your strength even as a mage up to a certain point, however most people will go and simply focus on their magic more hindering themselves when they don't have to be hindered at all.

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Post by Yima on August 28th 2012, 8:55 pm

My Opinion: Mp regain is an attempt at removing the consequence of spending mp. Since the main focus will be on mages for this let's bring our focus there, mp is essentially your muscle if it had to be compared to a warrior, when either is exhausted they are done fighting and giving mages the opportunity to continually churn out magic would me akin to continuous offensive regen that only they benefit from in a meaningful way in comparison to other character growth routes, or that this would inspire mages to drag topics out to continually spam their abilities to win which would give rise to evasion mages like it or not some of which are already here. Also mages already have other ways of fighting beyond their magic, for example a good number of mages in the past have garnered great evasion, strength, speed, and stamina.

Anyone who has more mp than you will always hold the chance to negate all your magic forcing you to fight physically though in the case of mages they have far more flexibility in the spell crafting opposed to any other character growth route which they can use to attempt to turn all their weaknesses into strengths with forms. If you want to be a burst mage then it will cost you the mp as someone with low stamina and high speed/accuracy/strength; they will tire out quickly while having alarming damage. Keep in mind also that mages spells deal more damage in general than most other characters for less mp (read up on you opponent's character) though the same amount of mp will cancel it out because it is still the same amount of energy in an area; mages tend to be able to make better use of it and that is why they deal more when their spells strike home. In no way do I support this idea.

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Post by Lenneth on August 28th 2012, 9:35 pm

Due note you can change your vote if persuade other wise, underneath the call is a cancel vote button

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Post by Shirou on August 28th 2012, 9:37 pm

No MP regen is what keeps the balance. It what makes spells how powerful they are now. To change that, we'd have to add drawbacks. How many cool down posts. A new scale for MP/Power stuff. Why change a system that works perfectly. It's what makes the decision of being a strength based person vs a mage based person have weight. You don't regenerate your stamina in a topic, so why should you regenerate mana? My opinion is no.

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Post by Ashlyn Carr on August 28th 2012, 11:59 pm

I use regen. systems in all my other RPs and I've yet to stumble across OP or GM issues. It's hardly a system to be abused, in my opinion and based off of whatever number of years of experience I've had with them. I have no aversions toward not having a regen. system, I just like being open minded.

Regeneration doesn't necessarily have to be 5MP, it could be 1MP per post void of action taken against an opponent. Action meaning no physical or magical attacks made in a post. It doesn't make sense for anyone to suddenly gain a lot of energy back in the midst of battle or demanding activity.

Another idea would be to have regen. be an option if all magic has been expended, and then cap the amount they can gain back. This regeneration would only ever happen once, which still adheres to logic of energy expenditure and the toll it'd take on the body. For example, if a person has 40MP and they expend all their magic down to 0MP, then they can only ever gain back half of it - 20 MP. If they had a selection of spells that ranged from 5MP to 40MP, then the maximum amount of additional spells they could use ever again was 5 because they were 5 spells that cost 5MP. And, spells that cost 5MP are - obviously - very weak spells. They would no longer have access to a spell over 20MP, and a spell that cost 20MP could only be used once more. So, there could be some cases where the regen. only allows a character the use of a single spell.

Again, I don't mind either way. I was just wanting to contribute ideas that came to my brain after reading the initial proposal.

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Post by Kasturi on August 29th 2012, 5:37 am

There's a few stuff I can see:
1. With non regen mp, fights will not drag out, that's what Cloaks told me when I mentioned mp regen to him in my early days here. I believed him, but later I see that's not the case with melee types. I saw a lot happened like that where some just don't want to back down and let other people win.

How does it feel like every time you want to swing a keyblade you minus 10mp?

2. Why do people assume magic deals a lot of damage? That's only if you took a pure warrior path in buffing up your Stamina and Strength and neglecting Magic Def. Melee attacks are just as frightening to us mages, cause we normally have low Stamina or Def as trade off to magic.
If my magic offensive is high, and so does your magic def, I'll be better off throwing maxi-pads.

3. Because of non regen mp, as a mage all my battles are pretty much one hit strike like a samurai. Though it effectively keep my battles short, it is very constricting and gets boring. Really. And I'm sure as hell none of my super spells ever gonna hit because the other guy so happens to have high speed or agility. As long as he can make excuse to dodge my one attack, he is free to whack me to death.

As therefore, I support mp regen, but in a way Zakai mentioned. If Mystic's Chaos Pulse 5mp does a bruise, (if it hit which most case doesn't), I don't think 5mp regen every 2 turns will allow me to spam killing blows.

edit: last point; if a mage regain 5mp for a spell, his enemy would also regain 5mp to negate it

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Post by Arianne Rose on August 29th 2012, 6:11 am

Kasturi wrote:
If my magic offensive is high, and so does your magic def, I'll be better off throwing maxi-pads.
Oh god that cracked me up.... xD

In the earlier days when we were building FFWorldz, Leo and I came up with a very simple fix to the issue we have now. Lots of people were warrior types, and fights were long/incredibly boring. So, we gave magic-type classes a larger MP pool than those who were warrior types. It wasn't too much, (I think it was like 30~50 more MP), but it was enough to where a mage could actually have a fighting chance. Pretty soon after, we had this slew of summoners appearing. We applied the same thing to partner characters, and suddenly more people were making caster-type partner characters as well. It was a good change, and extremely refreshing to the community.

I remember TerraDagger when he first joined (probably one of the most mage-like fighting styles I've ever seen RP'd here,) and he had a hell of a time fighting anybody, because it said a million times in his old profile that he was a mage, and sucked at swordfighting. But once he ran out of MP, he was FORCED to. We didn't allow stuff like Ethers and whatnot. He ended up having to post about a hundred different training topics to better himself IC.

Mages do need a benefit. Once they run out of magic, they're basically forced to fight a warrior's game, and in the end (realistically) they wouldn't be able to win. That's not fair at all---people should be allowed to fight in the style that they choose. This system we have going on doesn't encourage people to fight as a magical-style method at all, and I wouldn't mind seeing more mages around here anyway.

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Post by Etzolix on August 29th 2012, 12:43 pm

Seems like a pity party for mages. And it's that doesn't hold a lot of ground considering Lenneth at one point was the most powerful character who is a mage himself. Yes, it takes awhile to get there to become really powerful and the benefits aren't as innate as being a warrior but then wouldn't that mean that jack of all trades have it even harder since they don't get any specialties at all until later in the same sense that mages do only the mages get benefits in the approval sections? The benefit later on is they don't get a weak spot for lower members to shoot for but until then they're just essentially weaker in every aspect. You might say, "Well, that was their choice when creating their character." Which is a valid argument and can be applied to mages.

The largest misconception is that mages get treated the same in the approval section as the rest of the members. If we did give them more mana they would have to bring up the prices of all of their spells. As well as having to go through it all an redefine how much it would cost because of the fact there is a new maximum MP and therefore the system would change on how we do approvals. Essentially, giving you more MP is more of a drawback because there would be drawbacks to it. A large 90 MP spell that would cost me 150 will end up costing 150 for a mage.

And that's a rather...stupid argument regarding the high magic defense. If you're a mage and someone has high magic defense then you're screwed yes. That's the same way if you're a warrior and someone has high physical defense. You can attack constantly as a warrior but you will only be able to deal as much damage to someone as a 100 MP or less mage spell. Physically, no one will ever get to those higher tier area of effects that can not only hurt an individual but every single person within that area regardless of the amount of people and the larger the area the more difficult it is to escape. For some spells it'd be practically impossible to dodge because of their power but you have to be willing to expend the MP for it to get those benefits. Benefits that warriors do not get.

And yet again a huge misconception among mages is that you suck at fighting physically. While, yes it can be a weakness it doesn't mean you are weak in every aspect of fighting just that you suck with the technique and that can be overcome. If you have high magical attack and high magical defense and then two weakness...the rest of your stats are average and still can be used to your advantage since you aren't bad at it. You keep saying that mages get these weaknesses against warriors but that's implying that warriors don't get weaknesses to magic.

Lenneth/Hrist literally has a type advantage against Jet Enduro and unless he can make a summon that somehow does something immensely crazy he will always lose against Lenneth because of type advantage. A lot of warriors don't want to sacrifice their speed or strength so they trade defense and a lot of the time it's magical defense as well which is actually rather common. Low leveled? Yeah, they'll have the advantage but once you get a good amount of magic against someone like that and know how to use it chances are you're going to win consistently. You're weaker at the beginning and that's a drawback to being unbelievably powerful later on.

Also, this MP thing would actually benefit me more as well considering when I fight a warrior I have a lot of lower MP cost spells that deal physical damage and since I can just wait it out I'll be able to use them again and granted it wouldn't be as spammy but it'd be a lot more useful since I'd be able to use my attacks while also able to negate theirs and since they are a warrior I won't really have an issue getting away from their spells since they aren't large and if they do create something rather powerful I can use my negation magic to block and it'll come back. Truthfully, this'll help in my handicap against warriors because I use my magic as party tricks to give me that advantage. It's actually one of the reasons I am opposed to the idea because it's make the site less rock, paper, scissors and more anti-warrior. People keep taking situations where mages are at a disadvantage where it's situational when people will win or lose. Yes, sometimes you will be fucked in a fight and have no chance but in the same regard sometimes other people will be screwed when fighting a mage. That's the whole point of the site to choose what you're going to work with.

No single road should be given an advantage over others. If you want an example of how powerful mages can be we'll take this spell right here as an example of something that only mages could do. This would cost me 1000 MP if I was even allowed it--which I wouldn't be. I would be autodenied this and not only that but things on a smaller level as well that mages are capable of.

https://kingdomhearts.forumotion.net/t5602-transgression-identity-destroyer

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Post by Xemnas on August 29th 2012, 2:47 pm

I am usually against changes in an old system that has been working like this, but i personally feel that people are indeed forced to play a warrior's game, even as a mage playing character. As my canon is a mix of these two fighting styles, I can't complain, but I would honestly prefer if those of us who did use magic were given a little more wiggle room as far as casting spells went. granted that our spells are more powerful than yours, and it is true that we are capable of putting in attack power in our stats, but it varies too much in order to give a standard to people. (this is why the stat system was useful. we could have collectively looked at everybody and seen who had points placed where, and formed something based on that. i know it didnt provide growing room, but that's not what it was there for--it was designed to figuer out a persons strengths and weaknesses in fighting style.)

as a whole, I think mages would benefit from something like what Lenneth said, but we would have to look at everybody and decide where to go, imo. just my thoughts.

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Post by Etzolix on August 29th 2012, 3:32 pm

The whole reason there isn't a standard is so that people aren't limited to following that standard. It would be rather stale is every cure spell that cost 50 could only do what every other cure spell at fifty can do. It gives variables depending on how it is executed as well as particular skill in each field.
What I'm hearing is instead of keeping it a, "warriors" game you want to make it so it is a mages game. Mages already get cost reductions for their spells, get to do more with that much MP even though it was reduced but people want them to not only gain more MP but make them regenerate it as well. What does this give the warriors who already are weaker now since we are less fantasy because that was, "godmodding" but are allowing fields of destruction for mages who are willing to put the MP?

You can't be a powerful mage if you're not willing to expend the MP for it. No matter who you are if you only launch 5 or 10 MP spells all the time you're not really going to win a battle and I'm aware that it's primarily what battles consist of but people can use their average stats to combat people all the time. I used to do it for the majority of my career. This just seems like a power grab so that way mages can always win and that's not fair to other members who aren't mages. And you may argue mages always lose but that's already been refuted.

What you guys keep saying is that it is a warriors game when it isn't especially since there are different types of warriors in the first place just as there are different types of mages. Jet Enduro and Morph are two completely different types of warriors. One is purely based on speed and agility while the other is based on Strength and Stamina. As I've said before it's a game of rock, paper, scissors when it comes to advantages an disadvantages and you have to learn to deal with what you have. You can't win against everybody and what a lot of people are suggesting is making it so mages can which is unfair to every other type of warrior. The reason the warrior is so popular is because people want the bonuses right away or don't even care for making complex magics because they don't know the concepts of it. It is a KH game so you don't think of all the complex spells you can make when you first join.

The reason I don't want to implement the stat system is because last that happened the site died immensely and there were times where there would only be 7 people on a day and there would be two RPs going on that got responded to once a week. Truth be told that was the low point of the site but you can ask Shirou and other members who lived through it that there was a time where the site was practically dead because of the system. That's the only reason I'm so opposed to the stat system itself because I've seen what it does to the site first hand. Anyway, that in itself doesn't have to do with the magic regeneration system.

I was going to write more in these respective paragraphs but I felt this was already lengthy enough and a reiteration so it wasn't needed any longer than it already had been.

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Post by Paleo Ansem on August 29th 2012, 3:55 pm

In the end no matter how you put it comes down to using you're magic wisely. You can't expect to keep firing off stuff in the beginning and expect to win, in other words you simply have to wait until there cornered, in the middle of that flip, or whatever the situation may be, before you sound off. Which honestly not that many people do. Once more the mp regen is simply taking away a disadvantage mages have. The simple fact of the matter is that you CHOSE to be a mage, you take the good with the bad.

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