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Post by The Cloaked One on October 18th 2011, 6:02 pm

I just explained why. Money and experience are two different concepts, and if you have to ask why we need both, look at the games or my previous explanation.

You level up from experience and choose where to put the stat points you earn from those level-ups. It makes no sense to purchase statistics when they are supposed to reflect the physical capacities a character can have. Being able to say "Yeah, I'll buy two Intelligence, please." doesn't really strike me as the most logical system.

Also, characters will be put into statistical categories simply based on what they are proficient in, and, as in the games, the enemies will function identically to the player for the sake of fairness. A level two character won't kill Chernabog with a "lucky" hit, and a level sixty character won't get yelled at for essentially insta-killing thirty Shadows.
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Post by ReinaKaitlynn on October 18th 2011, 8:58 pm

Fair enough, though I would like to point out that the games dark souls, and demon's souls, both used a single currency for everything with great success. Maybe not attributed to those systems, but still worth noting. I still agree that there should be two currencies, I'm just providing a reasonable counter-argument from a neutral standpoint.
But one has to wonder, will there be a cap of sorts? And will there be adjusting of XP and munny values to scale with the players level? Or would they be a flat rate? (I understand it's probably the latter due to too much maths (Poor English intended.) but I figured I'd ask regardless.)

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Post by The Cloaked One on October 18th 2011, 10:08 pm

Like I mentioned earlier, levels would be exponential. What I meant when I said that was, basically, you would need more and more XP to level up as you got higher and higher. Munny will probably scale, as well; more worthwhile purchases costing more, but that's to be expected. The way I see it, if everyone wants numbers to determine more about the game, then numbers they shall have.

For those that still don't understand, it would look something like the following:

Level 1: 0 XP
Level 2: 25 XP
Level 3: 75 XP
Level 4: 150 XP
Level 5: 300 XP
.. and so on.

Or

Potion: 30 Munny
Hi-Potion: 100 Munny
Mega-Potion: 300 Munny
.. etcetera, etcetera.

Though, I will mention, for the sake of a continued discussion, another change likely to occur.

HP. There will be some.
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Post by Zihark on October 18th 2011, 10:13 pm

I know we all want a progression system that I'd based on stats, but HP is very constricting, especially for this type of RP site.

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Post by ReinaKaitlynn on October 18th 2011, 10:14 pm

I figured if we were doing stats in a raw format, we'd have HP. While that does somewhat limit the RP creativity imo, it's a good abolishing to the godmodding. Though here's the real question, is HP only affected when you actually hit someone? Or is it more like a turn based RPG where the effect is against their "Stamina" per-se and actually hitting a target doesn't matter, as it will always drain their HP? Because I can see major flaws in both of those approaches.... nyan.

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Post by The Cloaked One on October 18th 2011, 10:47 pm

Well, Zihark, it'd be fantastic for me to be able to accept your standpoint, but with only a conclusion and no premises on which to base it, your argument is rather invalid.

As for your question Reina, since you seem to have Dark Souls on the brain, I assure you it will not function like the fatigue value in that. There won't be a "Fatigue" value whatsoever, merely Health Points. The value will go down when you are hit by some sort of offensive force, be it by a fist, a sword, an arrow, or a fireball. A single stat will be set aside to decide your HP, likely Endurance, and in that spirit, I suppose it would function similarly to Dark Souls, as the stat has little value otherwise; like our Endurance does now.

Since Zihark brought up how "constricting" it will make "this type of RP site," I'll just go ahead and explain my reasoning now, so not to waste anyone's time with a response beforehand.

Every stat we are going to have is going to have a purpose, a function, a genuine, undeniable use, which will allow legitimate specialization, or legitimate balance, between all the statistics to be achieved. Based on how adamantly everyone seems to want a progression system, where each character can choose their own route and continue to become stronger and stronger over time as they put more and more effort into playing the game, this is the only way to make the progression system sensible. There will be no more figurative meanings for the statistics, such as Luck or Endurance or Agility, that everyone can simply ignore in any circumstance because they have no definition (not to say any of the other stats honestly defined anything, either). The new system will force the players to make critical choices about where their stat points are placed, and specializing in certain areas over others will never make you outright weaker than someone else at the same level. Making a definite HP value is the only way to make Endurance vital, and, like Reina said, it is probably the most vital change that will happen after the reboot. There will be no more god-modding, characters with 3 Endurance fighting for thirty pages, players letting their character get the living hell beaten out of them and keep going, or simply ignoring and brushing off damage that their characters definitely should have felt. There will be no real insta-killing of Heartless, who will also have HP, and will need to be dealt with as any other combatant would. Every spell and skill can be given literal power values, and every physical attack you initiate will have real meaning to it. Summons will receive their own stats and be given defined value, as well.

However, I'm sure everyone is concerned about the "freedom" we would "lose" due to HP being established. Well, frankly, I don't really care at this point. Those of you who are behind this reboot, and want the progression system to be put into action, yet don't want this specific change involved with it to go through, are essentially telling me "We want to be able to increase our numbers as we go, but we don't actually want them to mean anything." If that's the case, I'll go and post up a single thread right now titled "THIS DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING" and inside it will include a detailed guide about how meaningless every stat is and how you get a point to put wherever you want every five posts, because there's no way on God's green earth that I plan on firebombing the entirety of the site for the sake of this system if it's going to amount to exactly what we had before.

If we decide to go through the effort of amending all the rules and regulations for something like this, we're not going to tweak the system; we're going to flip it completely upside down. Try not to make me repeat myself a third time.
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Post by ReinaKaitlynn on October 19th 2011, 5:16 am

I don't mind it so much, being dependant upon stats, though in particular I am slightly concerned about how evasion will work. It's an RP, so obviously not 100% of attacks will hit 100% of the time, and obviously evasion as a stat, and maybe accuracy as well will affect the accuracy of an attack. But how exactly would that work? Would it be a number of dodges that a player gets to use on a whim?
I'd write more but work is starting in a few minutes so I'll save it for next time.

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Post by Kasturi on October 19th 2011, 1:36 pm

Hi, i've been busy with coming tests lately, but there's this one idea for the system i really want to share. Its a combination of other people's ideas, and its a little compromise between freedom and progression system.

So basically there's only 2 point system, Posts and XP.
In battle, HP and AP.

Posts - only the Rp related posts counts,
- determines your level. lvl up will give you stat points.
ex. 0 post lvl 1, 100 posts lvl 2, 500 posts lvl 3 etc

XP - gained by posting in Rp, get extra if start a new topic
- get a lot more for participating in events:
for fighting characters; Mission, Boss Battles, World Battles, Tournaments
for non-fighting characters; im not sure but as long the Rp event is just as challenging and encourage player participation
(there's no distinct line btw fighting n non-fighting players, so they can also join non-fighting events, as long as they follow the rules.)

XP is not for leveling up, but to buy weapon slots, spell/abilities slot, enchantments, and other upgrades.

Battling System
Hp is number of hits you can take before KO'ed/die, AP is spent using magic, special abilities, and items.
Cure and potions require one spell/ability slot each and consume AP in battle. Cure can be used on yourself or others while potions can only be used on yourself.

Stats
Attack : normal physical attack damage
Defense : nullify physical damage from your opponent
- if your opponent attack is lower than your defense, the attack only deals 1 damage. If its higher by ex. 2 points, then it deals 2 damage.

Magic Attack : your AP number
Magic Defense : nullify magic damage from your opponent
-Higher your magic attack, higher your AP, more magic attack you can cast. Magic Defense works same way as your Defense.

Speed/Agility: ratio, number of times you can evade
Accuracy/Luck: ratio, number of times you can hit
- if your Spd/Ag is 3, and your opponent Acc/Luck 4, the ratio is 3:4
- it means every 3 evasion/miss/parrying you did, 4 hits from the opponent must happen, so there's limit in evasion

Stamina/Endurance : your HP

-at start of character creation, each person given a number of points to spend on stats
-at each lvl up, they get a number of stats points to spend
-leveling up depends on the number of posts you have
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
example
Kasturi lvl.1 VS Balendin lvl.3
Atk: 5 ---- Atk: 8
Def: 4 ---- Def: 7
Mg Atk: 7 ---- Mg Atk: 5
Mg Def: 6 ---- Mg Def: 5
Spd: 7 ---- Spd: 7
Acc: 3 ---- Acc: 5
Sta: 10 ---- Sta: 15

From stats we know Kasturi Hp = 10, Ap = 7, and Balendin Hp = 15, Ap = 5
If I attack Balendin, I would deal 1 damage. My Atk < his Def.
If Balendin attack me, it would deal 4 damage. His Atk > my Def by 4 points.
If I attack Balendin, 3 attacks would hit and 7 would not hit. In other words, in 10 of my attacks, he can choose to avoid 7 of them, max.

-the freedom in this system is that you can choose what attacks you want, when you want to evade and when you want to get hit, how you want to move, whatever spells/items you want to use
-the stats are there so there's a restriction to that freedom, to prevent it from being abused
-but then you can choose how to spend your stats, thus freedom in customizing your character
-XP can buy powerful upgrades, but you need to participate in special story/quest to get high XP, thus the progression system.

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Post by Chastity Corrine Carter on October 19th 2011, 9:24 pm

So Shirou - what you're saying is, is that everyone would start over. Would that mean I could go back to Rayna, if we really did restart the site?

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Post by ReinaKaitlynn on October 19th 2011, 9:26 pm

If we restart the site, everything is as though from scratch, only memories shall be retained, and even those can be dissolved if so desired. At least that's what I'm seeing.
I'm sure it's too much hassle to try to convert characters anyways, instead of simply remaking them.
{Edit; Also, hi other Rayna... well, same pronunciation anyways}

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Post by Saixor on October 20th 2011, 2:02 am

Zihark says "Restrictive".

Zex, I know you don't give a flying fuck about negative opinions, but let me explain this viewpoint.

We're writers, predominantly. This place labels itself as an RPG, and it does definitely have RPG Elements. (Unlockable MP, weapon slots, spell slots, etc.)

But, having RPG Elements and being an RPG are two vastly different things.

Let me explain.

Deus Ex: Human Revolution, is a First Person Shooter, with RPG elements. Are there extra goodies you get for leveling certain things up, like inventory capacity? Yes. But is it really an RPG? Not really. Yeah, there are experience points and everything, but you could theoretically get through the game without using praxis points.

Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor (Sorry, most recent RPG I've played) is an RPG. There are stats, that directly factor into what you can or can't do. If you have a low AGL or STR, there are skills you won't be able to learn. Your damage output is determined directly by levels, every combat-oriented thing in the game is heavily tiered and leveled. Sure, there are storytelling elements, you get to navigate your way though it's storyline, but it is an RPG. You can't avoid it.

You're asking us to make the jump from RPG Elemens to a direct RPG.

I'm outta here soon, so really I don't care that much, but Zexion, don't you think that that.'ll be tricky and bothersome to keep up with? And even if not, wouldn't that be boring as hell? "Zihark attacks Saixor for 15 slash damage, then uses Magic Missile for 12 Non-Elemental damage.." is way more boring than "Zihark slashed across Saixor's chest with his dark katana, savoring the feel of the black blade tearing through the Nobody's flesh. Laughing, he concentrated his energy into the palm of his hand, then yelled 'magic missile!' and threw the light blew projectile at the maestro's chest."

Zihark has 7 strength and Saixor has 4 defense, but rolls an agility check for dodge, and it's a 16, -4 dual wielding penalty and....

Boring.

/2 cents

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Post by The Cloaked One on October 20th 2011, 4:07 am

To that point, Saixor, I need say nothing more than this:

I'm not asking anyone to jump from anything to anything; I was never the one whining about wanting stats and progression, in the first place.

Besides, a writer wouldn't stop writing just because what he is describing gets to be simplified by definite numbers afterwards. It simply prevents them from passing boundaries of god-modding, which should never happen in good writing, anyway. The comparison you attempted to make in your last paragraph between the number version and the written version would be one and the same. People could still go in-depth about what is going on, but every action they flourished with words would have get to have real definition in terms of the game they'd be participating in.
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Post by Kasturi on October 20th 2011, 10:16 am

To some degree, i understand what saixor saying. I dislike maths from the bottom of my heart (no offence to anyone intended). Its a little cumbersome.

Truthfully, i have no problems with the current system, just its a little confusing at the beginning. Some people said there's loopholes in the rules, but i don't know what they are.

There is one other way where stats can give big influence in battle but without need of any counting/maths.
Stats will be the same ever since character creation,
but the stats determine what kind of "special" abilities you can have
ex. character with high Spd/Ag can apply for sure-evade skill, but average characters can't
character with high Acc/Luck can apply for a sure-hit skill,
when both skills are used, their effects cancel out each other etc.

but other than that, how the battle plays out depends on the Rpers. So there's still a window of possible god-modding, but very much so less compared to current system.

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Post by The Cloaked One on October 20th 2011, 5:07 pm

I'm glad you're around to comment from the perspective of a newer player, Kasturi, as I don't really see any of these loopholes or fractures in the rules, either. As far as I could tell, it was simply everyone's way of using colorful language to describe their individual interests in establishing a new system.

However, doing what you suggested would be half what we have now, and half unnecessary. We'd have to come up with some awesome ability like you described for every combination of stats, and since all it would be adjusting between our current system and that one is that you get certain abilities for having certain stats, it would basically be handing everyone more power for being strong in an area, but not taking any away for them being weak in another.
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Post by ReinaKaitlynn on October 20th 2011, 9:45 pm

"Power of the warrior. Invincible courage. A sword of terrible destruction. Is this the path you seek?
Your path is set.
Now, what will you give up in exchange?"

KH1 - Tutorial gameplay.

Yeah this applies here too. However zex, this does bring to mind something I wanted to say earlier. I think it would be prudent to perhaps try out what you have planned in a closed, controlled RP or area to RP in maybe? That way we can get more feedback from a practical standpoint. Say either opening a new subforum specifically for it, or just a single RP somewhere that you can monitor. (I actually suggest the former, not the latter, as topic creation will probably also be different in some ways.)
If nothing more that will allow us to see exactly what changes you mean to make for ourselves.

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Post by The Cloaked One on October 21st 2011, 5:53 pm

That would be fairly easy to do, and there would most likely be something to that effect merely as a test to make sure the systems work properly. I'd rather not throw it out raw and take five years to realize that it apparently doesn't work. *Cough cough*
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Post by Kadence Faithe Rae on October 23rd 2011, 12:47 pm

I'm new and all, but just getting here, it does seem a bit dead. :/ I would love to see something new and fresh. I'm usually a member to stick around if things are thriving.

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Post by Shirou on October 23rd 2011, 4:08 pm

If you managed to read through the past six pages, do you have any comments on anything said or laid out?

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Post by Kenos on October 23rd 2011, 6:49 pm

I've been following along this topic ever since it first started, and I've also noticed that the site activity is getting lower and lower. Even the people who are logging in aren't RP'ing anymore. I know that I haven't been here for very long, but I really like this site and would hate to see it die. I've tried other KH RPG sites, and they aren't the same.

I agree with certain people that the members are getting disinterested. I've read old RP's, and gone through the Tournaments and World Affairs topics. Hell, I've even read through the entire site history. It seems like there used to be a lot of action and excitement going on. I don't think the problem now is with the system. There was plenty of activity with the current system just last year. People need motivation, something interesting, something they can get into.

Maybe if you hold an event or something of the like that sparks the interest of users new and old this site can get back on it's feet. Like Kadence said, she's a member to stick around if things are thriving. Members are getting tired of this site because there's not much to do. Like previous people have said in this topic, why do something that's already done? This site doesn't need to be changed or reborn; it needs to be cleaned up. I know it's a lot of work, and just making a new site may be easier, but if you care about the site it shouldn't be a problem, right?

I don't have any power or authority or anything, but if there's something I can do to help I'd be happy to do it.

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Post by Kasturi on October 23rd 2011, 7:30 pm

I totally agree with Kenos, i think this is what the site really needs. I like this site too, and more than willing to help out if im free : )

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Post by The Cloaked One on October 23rd 2011, 8:03 pm

Well, then, how would you define "needs to be cleaned up"?
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Post by Riku on October 24th 2011, 9:19 am

I've been gone for a while, but every once in a while I lurk here a bit. I gotta say I take a bit of offense to a couple comments here.

Azumi Cho wrote:Also, this site is inactive partially because there hasn't been a good story line in ages. Find a way to write up a new plot, let the normal users know about it and help out and we may get more activity too. This was such an issue with the Epic Skype Group because they often left everyone out of their ideas, and they normally turned out horridly.

The Cloaked One wrote:
Azumi, in reference to what you were saying about the old staff and how they slowly gutted any resemblance plot from the site, I really couldn't agree with you more. However, I'm not entirely sure if you're placing the blame on the correct actions of theirs, because those same actions have since repeated ad nauseum, long after their disappearance.

First off creating a plot is not easy, creating one people stick to and remain active through the events of even harder. Plot Team was basically my brain child and I spear headed it. i'm the one who left the site in the dark about the current plot, because I didn't want to give away the surprises. I saw it like a video game. What would the point be in telling EVERYONE the plot points, so that when they happened people were prepared, and uninterested. Instead I left the knowledge only to a few mods, who would sacrifice their own enjoyment/surprise in the plot in order to work on it for the members. Maybe that was wrong, but I feel like if everyone knew about the plot (no matter what it was), it would have been silly and predictable. Learning things gradually and uncovering a story over time is more enjoyable imo.

The first plot of the site was actually the last plot I worked on. We toiled for months to create a plot involving a group of NPC's which was going to breathe excitement into the site. Then the site got hacked. I started losing inspiration and love for this place when that happened. I didn't feel like putting all that work in again, and the plot was one of the things we couldn't retrieve.

I say reboot the site. This place isn't the same anymore, and never has been since the hack. This being said, at the same time keep in mind the whole "mile in their moccasins" saying. For a long time I put everything I had into this site and tried to make it the best I could. I know some other members of the "Epic Skype Group" did as well. We cared about the site, but we were i9n over our heads. I'm sorry if the work we did is not up to your standards, but I personally did the best I could.

~Riku/Chris/Pedobear

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Post by Demyx IX on October 24th 2011, 10:54 pm

Yea... I would give a long rant on my opinion, and I may later, but its late. Yes, I've been keeping up with this topic, and I have been checking on my topics, either logged on, or as a guest, except for one I forgot about. (Sorry Azumi) But yea... My vote.... Reboot the whole site. Flip it upside down, and all the other synonymous terms used in the other six pages of debate.

(Getting right on that, Azumi)

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Post by The Cloaked One on October 25th 2011, 5:21 pm

Though I appreciate the input, Riku, the plot team was never supposed to be known of by the public of the site in order to preserve the very ambiguity you say you wanted to uphold, and a majority of the effort that "we" put forth in order to set up the plot involving a group of NPCs was my own, which is supported by how I still have all the information concerning that plot saved on my old computer. While I seem to recall you perhaps being the one to suggest the plot team in the first place, I was the one who came up with the story surrounding those NPCs, the theme we were going to use for all of them, and 90-95% of the plotting of the actual events that were going to take place. I may have set it up so that your NPC would be the mastermind of the plot, but that's only because I didn't want the lead position myself. That being said, it's a little hard to appreciate your standpoint in defense of the staff when you remained an administrator on this new site for such a long while after the hack, yet admit that you yourself never attempted to put forth the slightest bit of effort to try and create another plot after the one you barely participated in.

I do still accept that some of you tried to give it your "best", but even a million times zero is still zero.
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Post by Leo on October 25th 2011, 7:00 pm

I'm not quite sure you have a vote on this Riku since you left the site along with the rest of the old staff and haven't been around in ages while the other active users have been here through the highs and lows, but oh well.

I think we should revise the templates. We need to add more things to them so that the users are able to customize their characters, weapons, spells, etc even further.

I say we add more things in the worlds, more places to go.

I think that we need to add more places to RP besides the normal worlds of the first two Kingdom Hearts games. I think we should add a couple of original places along with adding in the new worlds in Kingdom Hearts: Birth By Sleep.

We need to host a site RP tournament. Those were always big hits and were really fun.

We need more conflict. Why do you think I'm currently attacking Beast Castle? Balendin is one of the most active users and we are friends OOC. But there needs to be more conflict on here. The lines that use to clearly show who were the villains and who were the heroes are now faded and cloudy.

I say, be true to your character. It's okay to be friends Out Of Character (OOC) but don't act the same way OOC as you do In Character (IC). OOC I am just a simple guy, I like to laugh, joke, have fun, but IC, my character is a sneaky pirate, a no good pirate who happens to be a fiendish Half-Wolf...If people would be true to their characters, this would be a better place.

Anyway, that's my opinon thus far. Take it however you wish.

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