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Post by Etzolix on February 27th 2011, 11:14 pm

I feel that they need to be evened out a bit more, some are really powerful while others are on the "okay" section and then others are pure crap. Just putting it out there, since it seems we might end up using those soon.

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Post by The Cloaked One on February 28th 2011, 12:32 am

Specific examples.
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Post by Etzolix on February 28th 2011, 12:40 am

Alright.

Wonderland: Fifty-Two Pick-Up - Summons 52 "Card" NPCs under the world leader's control. Do not count towards NPC limits.

Deep Jungle: Allies of the Vine - Summons ten free “Gorilla” NPCs under the world leader's control. Do not count towards NPC limits.

Relatively same effect only one gets 52 NPCs while the other gets 10.

Beast's Castle: The Rose's Curse - Summons ten free “Furniture” NPCs under the world leader's control. Do not count towards NPC limits.

Same as deep jungle.

Hollow Bastion: Hollow Radiance - Control of the defense grid, allowing five grid strikes each post.

Personally I just don't understand how this would work but eh.

Space Paranoids: System Restore - Allows the world leader to instantly revitalize himself, or one of his defenders, fully restoring their magic to maximum, and healing any and all injuries they sustained. One use per battle.

Someone could be almost dead and this revives them in every way. It just seems OP to me.


There's also a couple more of the adding NPC thing, and then the *insert element negation affects*. The negation of certain element ones is okay.

Another one that's OP is
The End of the World: Negation of the Void - No magical abilities, such as skills, summons, forms and enchantments, may be used by the attackers once they have entered the world.

But that's just some of the worlds have very weak things while this one gives a lot more benefits.

Kingdom Hearts: Fulfilling Light - Nobody NPCs will receive hearts and vanish.
Realm of Darkness: Tainting Darkness - Any summoned Heartless become defenders under the world leader's control. Do not count towards NPC limits.

As for those too, even though against the rules it's going to be obvious people would metagame and not use and heartless/nobodies as NPCs when attacking the respective worlds.

It seems that all these effects are scattered in "levels".


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Post by The Cloaked One on February 28th 2011, 12:46 am

Well, what would you propose as replacements for the ones that seem too weak, or the ones that seem too strong? I had to formulate all of those without the input of anyone else, so getting some now, before they see legitimate use, would actually be beneficial.
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Post by Etzolix on February 28th 2011, 12:55 am

Well the NPC ones will most likely be ignored regardless of how strictly the rules would be enforced because everyone would be busy fighting each other.

The elemental ones are very iffy in use since there's a lot of people who don't use certain elements and a lot of people who do (mainly darkness) so for the most part they would somewhat be useless while to others it'd be extremely beneficial. So, it could be a wasted defense since it would rarely effect certain people if spread out.

What really caught my eye were the ones like these,

Traverse Town: Vexing Aura - The Maximum Magic levels of all attackers are decreased by half.

Twilight Town: Soothing Aura - The Maximum Magic levels of all defenders are increased by half.

Space Paranoids: System Restore - Allows the world leader to instantly revitalize himself, or one of his defenders, fully restoring their magic to maximum, and healing any and all injuries they sustained. One use per battle.

The End of the World: Negation of the Void - No magical abilities, such as skills, summons, forms and enchantments, may be used by the attackers once they have entered the world.

and even though overpowered (the last two more so than the first two) I like the whole concept of giving major/taking major assets to a side. It makes things more difficult for the attackers, which though obviously biased if they're doing something for a world it should be more difficult than a normal attack. Though I'm fine with the first two the others need to be nerfed and the rest of the abilities as a whole need to be upgraded.

My suggest on that would be things where there are major advantages given to defenders, or major drawbacks handed out to the attacks to make things more difficult. That way it wouldn't matter what world you attack there would always be a restriction that makes people go "aw fuck" instead of "hehe this is an easy target."

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Post by Nobody Trickster on February 28th 2011, 12:58 am

It depends on what everything would be.

It'd be a lot easier to simply distribute free NPCs based on the world (gorrillas cards soldiers) in terms of fairness but then everything would be lacking variety

The sacrifice of variety is fairness so it really depends on what you would like.

It would also help if the selection of world leaders was done more selectively seeing as how most of the current leaders just popped in and picked something they liked and looked pretty and never really did much for it.

Maybe if people rped taking control of worlds regardless of paperwork, they could submit their own defenses, maybe based off their characters, for approval by staff.

If not, i'd be glad to contribute to looking for altenative defenses

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Post by The Cloaked One on March 8th 2011, 12:49 am

Like I said, I was looking for examples, not more ways of describing the same point. It's appreciated, but rather unnecessary, as the gap between a full insta-restoration skill against getting ten monkeys with sticks and dung is crystal clear.

I can certainly see what you mean when you say some are technically weaker than others, but as anyone who has played the games can attest, not all worlds were created equal. The foes you faced in Wonderland were whelps compared to those you would find in The End of the World. If anything, it warrants some difference.

As far as the suggestion of being more selective with world leaders is concerned, there seems to be a pot calling the kettle black who received a world to call his own world for no more reason than I received my own. I have no interest in making life more difficult for newer members simply because you find no motivation to set up shop anywhere after making the conscious decision to become the cool, predictable rogue who kicks any shin he feels like in order to seem reckless and unrestrained.

And, unfortunately, I'm sure allowing each world leader to decide on their own world defenses would eventually turn the entire site upside down with random nonsense happening that has no basis whatsoever on the actual environment, knowledge or history of the location it takes place at.

This would be a good time to openly state to world leaders looking on that this isn't a private party. LF 50+ Beastmaster w/ SOW + fungi.
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Post by Renzenku on March 8th 2011, 10:30 am

I think it would be a good idea for the World Leaders to come up with personal world defences, I know that was shot down but perhaps there should be obvious limitations? As you stated, things that make no sense in the world shouldn't be a defense (unless directed from the leader maybe?)

Anyways, I'm thinking that each one should maybe be either enviromental or NPC's, but pertain to no magic limitation or MP limitations. Simply detremental things to things like movement/other stats.

Ex: Wonderland can reduce overall Intelligence (Thus magic strength) by 25%, due to it being to confusing to grasp fully during an attack. (To much happening at once). Or increase Luck by 50%?

Or perhaps something to do with tea and flooding....

Beast's Castle can reduce courage (Thus reducing total stamina- waste more energy worrying) by 15%.

Or perhaps something to do with Household items being NPC defences (as obvious) or moving around in the enviroment to constantly cause people to get lost.

End of the World could reduce gravity by a near unnoticible amount, BUT this would lower overall strength by something like 15%.


Just some off hand ideas .-. (and examples) Of course there are better ideas out there, hell there are even better implementations of MY idea. But there it is


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Post by Shirou on March 8th 2011, 3:30 pm

Zexion has a point: not all worlds are equal. With the same respect, more difficult worlds should be more difficult to attain leadership (but that's besides the point).

I personally think that each world get an environmental advantage, but to the point where things are weakened rather than being disabled completely/ For some worlds, elements would be affected. Like, instead of Water and Ice spells being disabled, they're effectiveness is cut in half or cost x% more MP, or fire spell fire spell damage is increased by x%.) And for other worlds, it'd focus on your stats rather than elements. In Ports Royal, you gain the Pirates Cleverness and your agility and speed increase by x%,. Idunno, just some thoughts.

Or just give the world defenses a bunch of NPCs, as Hostile Takeovers / regular attacks shouldn't be affected that much by the world itself and moreso with the people in the attack.

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Post by Azumi Cho on March 8th 2011, 9:10 pm

I would say perhaps an equal number of NPCs or close to equal. Something that could be agreed upon, at least. I like the idea of the world leaders coming up with their own defenses, within reason, but perhaps that could be explored later.

I like the idea of elemental effects taking place within certain worlds, like maybe a Fire reduction by 60% or so in Atlantica, and I actually like the idea of things being negated by certain worlds. It does make it a challenge, rather than an easy target.

The one qualm I had upon first reading the Hostile Takeover was the NPC limitation. Maybe expand that or get rid of it, since, if it is a full blown war, why would there be a limit to NPCs? Just my two cents, though.

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Post by The Cloaked One on March 11th 2011, 11:39 pm

Hm. Only three replies. Sad.. so sad. A host of sorrows, and you are one of them.

I'm actually considering giving each world their own NPC units, that those leaders can have access to at any time, regardless of location, as well as a kind of turf effect that only comes into effect on each world, be it a boost for one side or a detriment on another. Might be easier that way when you consider the fact that it'd probably be impossible for find a dozen and a half different world defenses that all the world leaders find fair, that all make sense, and that aren't over or underpowered.
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Post by Azumi Cho on March 11th 2011, 11:44 pm

I do like that idea. It seems like that would be easier and fairer to everyone. Again, that's just my two cents to this. Though, I do still like the idea of elemental effects plus the turf effects so that it's an added "oh crap" effect.

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Post by Zihark on March 11th 2011, 11:59 pm

The NPC idea, although the fairest way to even things out, wouldn't be effective. for the most part, one of two things will happen.

The NPC's aren't controlled properly, causing both clutter in the topic and leaving the attackers to deal with "three soldiers attacked Player 1" making Player 1 decide how exactly the soldiers attack. Which in most players will cause Player 2 to gripe at Player 1 for controlling NPC's that aren't his to control. Which causes more clutter because both parties will insist on having the argument beneath their actual posts, until the only thing in their post is anarguement.

And/or

NPCs being more undercut than shadow heartless. Whether it be one-hitting them or ignoring them by either party. The defender won't use them because they know the attackers will easily incapasitate or kill the NPCs. Or the attackers actually one hit the NPC's.

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Post by Etzolix on March 12th 2011, 12:28 am

Perhaps everything that needed to be said had been pointed out, or that the ideas that have wanted to be posted up have been brought up.

Back on topic though I'm with Zihark on the NPC thing, while the turf thing is something that can't be ignored without being godmodded. But monitoring the whole NPC thing would be pretty difficult seeing as how the members are in general. (Not just this site)

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Post by The Cloaked One on March 12th 2011, 1:23 am

Unfortunately, Zihark, that's only a relevant arguement when and if you are dealing with an inept leader who is so illiterate and unskilled in the verses of RPing that they would use illegitimate phrases such as "three NPCs attack that guy". In such a situation, the remedy would be rather simple: replace them with a better leader. Considering the only individuals who would be in control of these NPCs, thats really all there is to it. Granted that wouldn't exactly help if the targeted players simply ignore the NPCs altogether, but winning that battle won't save them from being banned for god-modding either.

As for the second arguement, that one would only be relevant if I hadn't already posted a topic in the rules area that specifically states that one-hitting Heartless, Nobodies and NPCs is ban-worthy. If the defenders decide that a hard-printed rule isn't enough to protect the NPCs from being seen as worthless, then it's their own fault, not the fault of the NPCs. If the attackers decide to one-hit the NPCs, then they get a crack on the head with a chance of being banned, which leads to an attacker being essentially kicked from the attacking side while allowing those supposedly killed NPCs to keep functioning. Vice-versa applies as well, for defending players killing attacking NPCs, and attackers not using their NPCs in fear of it.
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Post by Renzenku on March 12th 2011, 1:27 am

I have a point against the "against one hitting NPC's/heartless/nobodies". While, yes there are types of Heartless and Nobodies that may take a stab to the head and just get back up, almost no Human NPC can be stabbed through the head and survive. So, there must be numerous occasions in which one-hitting an NPC only makes sense. (ex: stabbing a Human NPC through the head)?

I know it's a stupid question, but I have to make sure I know everything 100%

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Post by Etzolix on March 12th 2011, 1:48 am

So what you're saying is for the NPC's that would be given, they would essentially work like summons where the leader controls every aspect of them fighting? If not, then the other play will just force there attacks onto the NPC's which is part of the whole "taking advantage of them" thing, and though I agree'd with Zihark's point I wasn't talking about specifically the one shot but the fact NPC's are taken advantage of.

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Post by The Cloaked One on March 12th 2011, 2:33 am

Both of your posts work together, Renzenku and Etzolix.

The NPCs would function precisely like summons, just permanent ones with no magic cost. It doesn't make sense to assume they would function any other way. They can't exactly attack randomly, because someone, somewhere along the line has to decide for them what's going on, and the only person who should logically dictate their actions, and their responses to the actions of others, would be the leader of the world whom those NPCs would serve under.

That being said, if the NPCs wind up taking a sword through to the dome, and say it's a human, or some kind of animal, or a Heartless that is allowed to be slashed in half, obviously it would be a one-hit kill. It's up to the discretion of both the world leader, and if it becomes an issue of those NPCs lasting too long in battle and taking a dozen extra attacks than they would understandably be able to survive, administrators and moderators, to decide about how much punishment these entities can handle.
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Post by Etzolix on March 12th 2011, 2:39 pm

Well if they act like summons in the way they're controlled then that issue of people taking advantage of them isn't that big of a deal to me because from what I knew when you had an NPC military it was just a "for show" type effect.

Anyway their strength would have to be determined before hand to so their capabilities would be known as well so they aren't over or underpowered. Perhaps using the stat chart for that as well since all NPC's would be the same level this lets the stat charts compare the ups and downs between the different types of NPC's?



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Post by The Cloaked One on March 12th 2011, 5:00 pm

Well, the problem in utilizing the stat system in order to effectively decide the capabilities of each NPC would be the overall implementation of it across all types of non-player entities that occur in the game. If we were to decide to use stats to define the NPCs for world defenses, then we would have to start using them to define summons as well. From there, we would then have to start using them to define each and every type of Heartless and Nobody as well, because if one type of NPC is going to start to behave as if it was a full-fledged entity, then all of them are going to have to unless we want some to be preferred over others. Going through all that effort for a system that hardly has any basis on the game as is seems like it would simply end up meaning a whole lot of nothing.

But, I never said that the NPCs themselves would be made equal or distributed equally in number. While I might give the Underworld access to a Cerberus NPC, and Wonderland access to a Card Soldier NPC, that doesn't mean those Card Soldiers will be as strong as Cerberus, and it doesn't mean that the Underworld will have access to as many Cerberus' as Wonderland does Card Soldiers. When you consider that, it's kind of senseless to try to compare all non-player entities with the same statistic system, unless that stat system is proportionate based on the entity being judged, which would truly be more than aggravating to come up with.
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Post by Azmot on March 12th 2011, 6:28 pm

Well I know I'm jumping in here because it isn't specified who can post, but I have a suggestion based on Eli's earlier post. Perhaps it could be up to world leaders to create there own Npc's like one would a character. Maybe they would have a specific purpose or ability that made them very powerful in groups, which could get rid of the OHK and the complete ignorance of them as well. Well, since were talking about some worlds being harder to obtain than others, perhaps the amount of NPC's or abilities they have could be the independent variable.

Like in wonderland not JUST card soldiers but what about Chesire Cat? Well, he might be a cannon, so a different example is in order. Like the underworld could have a skeletal beast or Demon NPC. Am I saying this correctly?
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Post by Etzolix on March 12th 2011, 11:28 pm

Well if there's going to be different types than "basic soldier" NPC's then the whole stat thing isn't needed. Though, I believe it should be more enforced that the NPC military would reflect the normal things you see in the worlds such as Beast's castle having those object things or RoD with heartless, and TWTNW with nobodies.

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Post by The Cloaked One on March 13th 2011, 5:32 am

That's precisely what I meant, Etzolix. Generic, humanoid classes of NPC might be easier to come up with and distribute, but they really don't reflect the individual worlds whatsoever. Not to mention that it'd be a bit boring when two feuding worlds bring their 10 generic NPC soldiers to a battle, and each NPC is essentially just cancelled out by each opposing NPC. It'd be a flat stalemate every time. But, if it's a battle royale between Cerberus, Sabor and five Undead Pirates, at the very least, it'd be more entertaining to watch.

However, concerning your suggestion, Azmot, I believe it was already made, and I don't really think it'd be a wise decision to leave the NPC picking up to each leader, especially not if I was going to allow them to create entities separate from what you actually see in those worlds in the games. Lines would quickly become strained, and for the system to mean anything, it would require an entirely new section devoted solely to leaders creating NPCs, and it's not really worth it when I could simply choose the NPCs myself and save everyone the headache because so-and-so only got 10 Skeletons, when he got 12 Beaver Centaurs, yet she only got 3 Professional Strippers with Blunderbusses. Sometimes, simpler is just better.

However, with a suggestion from Azumi, I am considering allowing the turf bonuses to be formed with input from prospective leaders.
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