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Memories Need to Be Reworked

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Memories Need to Be Reworked Empty Memories Need to Be Reworked

Post by Alexander Carvardukaras on September 15th 2014, 5:42 pm

https://kingdomhearts.forumotion.net/t11770-memories-lore

So, I think I might have been one of the first members to create a memory for use as an NPC in another topic. At the very least, I'm one of the only to do so recently. Topic shall remained unnamed for now because it's on hold and I don't feel like divulging a whole lot about my plans. But, talking with a certain Reptilian Native Ametican has revealed to me the above link, and upon reading it I have come to a really disheartening conclusion.

Memories are just Heartless 2.0.

This is not an attack on the concept. I recognize that they were a response to a need to create a new, legitimate threat to the worlds to stimulate activity among the members, an effort which has largely failed because members are ignoring these rather uninteresting enemies. They aren't uninteresting because of their lore, which is fairly interesting in and of itself. But conceptually, the differences between the Memories and the Heartless ends with their lore and to some degree their motivation.

Memories Vs Heartless in terms of interaction with the worlds:
Memories, like Heartless, seek the Hearts of Somebodies. For each the reason is different, but the overall end result is that they add another number to their species.

Memories, like Heartless, release the crux of their existence when born. They even form into an instance of Kingdom Hearts.

Memories, like Heartless, seek the hearts of worlds. The end result is that these worlds are destroyed.

Memories, like Heartless, are driven by an instinct similar to hunger and the biological need for procreation, sating both by devouring aspects of their prey to create another of their species. Arguably only an end result for Memories.

Memories, like Heartless, have built ships to travel between worlds (why the fuck do Heartless need ships by the way?).

Memories, like Heartless, are attracted to attack Keyblade wielders.

Memories, like Heartless, aren't inherently evil, just driven to survive with some among their number being docile and even playful, if not outright mischievous.

Really the only ways memories don't mirror Heartless are the fact that there are two kinds of Heartless-- a mess that is another discussion for another time. The fact is, Memories are attempting to occupy a void that doesn't need to be filled, simply because it isn't empty. Members don't gain anything through their stories when they substitute Memories for Heartless. There is nothing enriching about them. You can't blame members for not using something to accomplish the exact same goal as something else they're already using. Why make up my own Memory to fight when I can thrash a Darkside instead?

Which is why I believe Memories need a reworking. The very term Memories evokes an interesting reaction, even as enemies. But rather than look at what we as a site had done in the prior universe and use that to establish a link, there was a fairly half-assed attempt to tie it into the preexisting lore. That isn't to say that we're all above this, because we aren't. This isn't a simple entity however, it's supposed to be a KHRPG mainstay and it needs more effort to reflect this. We'd be better off simply letting members design their own Heartless and Nobodies if you are willing to let them create memories as they exist.

I do not believe memories should be the result of a being losing it's memories, not because it's been done (it has) but the variety of enemy this creates is narrow. Instead, I suggest something else. I suggest something that has to do with the history of the site.

What if memories were just powerful events from the previous site attempting to bleed into the new universe? Hear me out. Heartless and Nobodies are remnants of something else, namely somebodies. Unversed are emotions raging out of control. Dream Eaters are being that eat and seed dreams based on their alignment. Why not take aspects of each, and merge them with something new to KH lore? Namely something we've created.

My idea is that Memories are beings born from lingering sentiments. Powerful events and emotions surrounding them in the previous universe that have bled into this one. Old rivalries, great friendships, wars and empires... all of these had a lasting impact on the community. While many can argue that these were from darker or better times of the site, none can argue that they all had an impact. From Kingdom Hearts to Twilight Hell, everything has left an impression. It carries weight.

Each memory, unlike every Heartless or Nobody faced, should be a trail in and of itself. Even if the foe is weak, the experience should have a lasting impact on even strong characters, Imagine if each time you killed a memory, the specific memory it represented forced it's way into your mind? You would then become the sole observer of that memory. After you killed enough memories, you might even turn into a whole different person. Yet, if you don't kill them they will eventually, no matter how docile, seek out and attack people with powerful individual experiences to further their own strength. It could even be stated that if Memories don't do this, their own existence will eventually be compromised.

Memories, in essence, take a toll on those that make a career of slaying them. Not a punishment as much as a growth mechanic. These memories may bestow harrowing experiences and new abilities, more knowledge, but at the possible risk of becoming lost in them. They would take a variety of shapes, either embodying the event or the individual. This creates memories who will eventually have the same endgame, but with different motives. No intelligence would exist among them per say, being manifestations of preexisting feelings, but they could fake it with flawless human-level interaction. Or, they could be completely feral. Or anywhere in between.

Point is, we have an interesting concept that seems to be just another Heartless clone. That so much thought was put into creating them is heartwarming, but that the end result is so trite is saddening.
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Post by Hikari on September 15th 2014, 6:56 pm

There's a large resistance against bringing in a major connection between the previous site and this one. It's highly unlikely that the members will be interested in bringing about such and the extent to which we've seen such occur currently is just in characters from different universes crossing over to this one -- which are a minority without a doubt. Besides that we also have to acknowledge that such means we have to address matters of the previous universe which we were leaving ambiguous on purpose any case anybody wanted to pursue plot points with old characters. By establishing a definitive fate of that universe we say no to the potential for a spinoff site to be created by the members following that universe as well as potentially interfere with various plot ideas of the individual. I was told this back when I personally suggested that we add a conclusion to the old site rather than just leave it with all sorts of plots hanging without resolutions.

I do however agree that Memories should play a bigger role. I personally suggested this myself when Memories were being first planned out but ultimately it was turned down since people thought we should start things off easily. As such, my idea for Memories was denied.

Basically, I wanted to see them being an actual threat emerging. If Memories weren't dealt with entire populations could be converted into them or if neglected for long enough but addressed provide permanent damage to the NPCs there. Those whom had traveled between the worlds within the new ways of exploring provided (the pathways to the worlds built by the Memories) would be unaffected by this but everyone else would ultimately suffer said consequences if it wasn't dealt with. The way this would work is that over a period of time the presence of Memories would begin to slowly affect the world around them; more Memories being present translating to quicker effects. There wouldn't be a specific time limit but rather a plot-based counter based off whether or not it was determined to be dealt with in a reasonable amount of time.

There'd have to be enough Memories around to actually make an impact before this sort of thing started happening but when it did people would have to deal with it -- lest NPC citizens gain amnesia or be converted into Memories themselves if subjected to the passive effect on them long enough. This would bring in a new element we haven't seen with former enemies as issues with coexistence of the two species would emerge and people would overall have to deal with this new situation in different ways. It'd give birth to different ways of thinking and different ways of action that could potentially cause conflict and overall that I feel would boost activity.

That's just me though and my suggestion if we make adjustments to the Memories.

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Post by Etzolix on September 15th 2014, 7:05 pm

Their role isn't the issue, it's their origin. Without an intriguing origin, no one will WANT them to play a bigger role. If it's forced down their throat, it will be rejected.
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Post by Belysa on September 16th 2014, 12:24 am

There was intended to be some form of lead on origin in the Alpha Plot.
Do the Memories need more emphasis? Sure.
Do they need better designs that pertain more to the universe they're in? Definitely.
Do they need more interesting traits? Totally.

I always considered memories to act sort of like Heartless, but instead of just "oh they multiply because...idk, reasons" It felt more...logical I guess to have them just sort of Danny Phantom their way through people and snatch important memories from people. Through those memories they gobble up, they'd become more powerful--I'm sure each Memory would have their own reason for gaining power, be it an instinctive sort of thing where maybe stronger Memories *eat* weaker ones, so the only option is to get stronger, or maybe just to protect something else--it's all a matter of perspective.

My thoughts on why Memories would seek out the Hearts of worlds would have to do with the concept that things with a heart are by technical aspects, alive. So these worlds would grant certain properties to Memories if they were lucky enough to take a nibble at the Heart of a World--they would gain some kind of power or ability related to that world, but in exchange, that world could lose something REALLY important. (Like, let's say for shits and giggles, a strong Memory somehow takes a sip from The Grid's Heart--they'd get some kind of Grid-related ability, and maybe something like the Lightcycles would vanish completely: nobody in the world would remember what they were, and the items in question would just vanish completely. It's not too unlike the concept of the data-TwilightTown when Roxas and his data-friends find their photos missing--they know what it is, but the item in question has gone missing.)

This makes Memories both harmless and extremely dangerous to the worlds and the people in it. It wouldn't KILL you persay, but it'd definitely do some damage in the long run if they weren't taken care of, sort of like the Heartless.
We could take it a step further--Memories could not only hunt down people, but Nobodies as well. We have to take into account, Nobodies house the memories of the people they were before, making them prime targets for hungry little Memories. Taking away a memory from someone wouldn't kill them...but it would take away part of that person.

Of course that's nothing that can't be replaced. You could just whack away at the little scamp until you got your memories back--but they, not too unlike Sora's buried memories, would be pretty darn difficult to fish out again. You'd remember that you forgot something, but you wouldn't know what it was until something jogged it back again, depending on what it was.

As for an origin? Naminé is a powerful avatar of just how potent memories can be--it could be possible that playing about with the memories of someone who is so important to the wellbeing of the worlds, and just skimming along Ventus's memories, may have triggered the return of the Memories to begin with. Heck, they could have been here the whole time, before the Unversed. Maybe the Memories are what the Keyblade Warriors of the Darkness called along with the pureblood Heartless--it could be why nobody really remembers the details of the Keyblade War--some Dark Keyblader asshole summoned up a huge-ass Memory that just went on a rampage, until Kingdom Hearts was sealed and the remainder of the broken order went off to destroy the thing. Of course they let it get away, and that huge-ass Memory has just been chilling in the deepest, blackest pit of sleep or something--and then Naminé nudged it awake while she was mucking about in Castle Oblivion and the Old Mansion.

It's all various speculation. I typed out what was going on in my head. It would make sense.

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Post by Etzolix on September 16th 2014, 2:26 am

Hm. I misspoke, I more-so meant a mechanic to make them distinguished. The races all have their own motives, which they can tackle in their own ways. Heartless are more instinctual, Nobodies are more intellectual (presumably the lessers were given orders by the higher ups, right?)

At least, that's what I'm interpreting from Alex's topic. Not to discredit the rest of your post Bel, as that's actually what he was referring to and a good baseline for conversation.

I just wanted to clarify my poor word choice.
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Post by Alexander on September 16th 2014, 9:03 am

I strongly prefer my idea because it's more palatable and explains one, very important thing.

Go look at the Memories' bestiary. Look at all of the things. Now, take these, and tell me what about them makes sense? There is a "race" called Memories comprised of nothing but what seem to be exceptions to their baseline goal. I keep getting from some people that "Memories can be anything the members want".

That's not how a race works. That's not how a species works. Even a race of shape-shifters have a basic form to start with, be it an incomprehensible blob of... nothing important, or something much more defined. Looking at the bestiary, I see all these wonderful ideas and yet they cause me discomfort. You can't have a race made of nothing but exceptions, because if nothing is the same there is no actual race.

Heartless have two distinct races but can both still be defined as heartless because of their interactions with Hearts and their composition being primarily of Darkness, yet are distinguished because Pure-Blooded Heartless are Darkness of the Heart made flesh and Artificial Heartless are shells of Darkness that contain seemingly infinite reservoirs of stolen hearts. Despite the fact that they have a massive amount of di-morphism, barring the rare humanoid Heartless you can almost immediately identify a Heartless just for seeing it.

Same deal with Nobodies. There are two breeds of Nobodies two: Lesser and Humanoid. Humanoid are much more intelligent and capable of faking human interaction, also wielding greater power and in most cases control of a specific element representative of them in some way. Lesser nobodies are commanded by the Humanoid Nobodies. Yet, they all carry the same basic color-palette across their various different forms, as well as their unnatural body movements. They can be identified at a glance, and usually are either missing their hearts or in the process of regrowing them.

Unversed have tale-tell eyes, actually having four different races among them. However, they are all identifiable based on shape, movement, and most importantly their eyes, which not only indicate that you are indeed dealing with unversed but exactly what type of unversed you are confronting.

Dream Eaters are arguably the most diverse of the species named, but even they have incredible colors (not to mention an extremely specific environment they live in) to identify the two different types. Nightmares have Darker, more sinister palettes and usually possess red eyes while Spirits are much brighter and typically possess yellow eyes.

So... how does one know they are fighting a memory? They don't. Memories have no traits that carry across them, despite sharing the same goal and the same hunger. The idea that they can get stronger by sampling memories is something I have already put forward, though I phrased in it a manner more delectable to myself. My way means they have to completely osmose an individual's memories and they in turn boost their strength.

But onto the important question: how would my method resolve the currently existing memory crisis?

Simple. Memories would not be a race. They would be manifestations of events and emotions. They would seek their own existence through gaining memories to make themselves "real". They represent events and occurrences that have not happened in this place. They effectively do not exist, displaced sentiments that wandered into this universe from anywhere-- the old KH, or one that doesn't exist yet, or something else tangible and powerful. Not, "Namine brought them here." That's really off-putting to me.

They seek to validate themselves. They seek to become events. Imagine if one of these memories actually became powerful enough to become real? There is a legitimate threat of a resurgence of a horrifying NPC event. Imagine if the entire Empire- THE ENTIRE EMPIRE- just reappeared. Echoes of themselves, sure, but echoes made more powerful than their true counterparts because of how people perceived them in the old days. That's only an example, but that could be the shit we have to deal with. A thing that just exists, devouring memories until it detonated into a preexisting event, creating some kind of insane overlap with the actual reality being subjugated temporarily by a subjective perception of an event. They desire to make the memories they represent "true" drives them, and that makes them unique versus other enemies and incredibly dangerous.

If slain, the slayer of the creature becomes a vessel for that memory, a tragic event or joyous occurrence that only they experienced, an old friendship that suddenly they had. It forces the characters to grow and change  by overcoming them. They carry an unbelievable amount of weight, because they still win. Those lingering regrets or drive to accomplish something sincerely inhabits the person who defeats that memory, which in effect makes them real. They aren't another Heartless Copy through this.

Which is my primary problem. We already have a space occupied by the Heartless, giving them the scary hive-minded creatures that mindlessly seek out and consume hearts to sate themselves and add to their number. Even if memories have different reasons for doing the same or a similar thing, they still serve the function that the Heartless do which makes them woefully uncompelling. Two suggestions put forward by reasonably intelligent people, and all I've gotten from one is "more threatening Heartless" and the other "Heartless whom you don't remember how they won".

That's... well, the first is meh because Heartless can be that threatening anyway with proper guidance. The second one is just pointless because nobody can understand that there is a consequence. The only thing that would happen is a bunch of really smart people standing around, rubbing their chins and pondering about how something seems very off, a massive sense of "ugh what did I do last night" while some giant Oppa mills about in the background casually.

This is not to discredit other ideas, but that may be a result. All of them will have weak points, and without addressing those weak points none of the three here will get strong enough to usurp the current canon.

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Post by Yima on September 16th 2014, 10:02 am

Memories to me represent fractured beings, the more fractured the more base they should be in my mind (closer to being a standard variety much like shadows or large bodies are with heartless).  The do have a instinctual need/desire to become whole and will consume from other fractured beings or from whole beings what they need to become whole; when they do reach a state of self awareness they do indeed become a higher level of memory much like humanoid heartless or nobodies.  

The lesser memories to me are extremes that take life while the rest of the shattered being drifts apart or is consumed by say a heartless or a dream eater which does create a relationship between the races.  In my mind they would have always been around though the immense tragedies that befall the kingdom hearts universe over the past few decades could have been a call to a immense feast drawing them from other realities allowing them to multiple, expand, and consume until they became noticeable as a unified/more standard threat threat.

Those are my early morning thoughts on them and how I have come to think about memories.

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Post by Shirou on September 17th 2014, 1:11 am

Skimmed the first post, ignored the rest.

The Memories are my brainchild. Something I wanted to grow and evolve through other members. Somebody directly changing how I set it up bothers me, of course. I'm sure it'd bother you if you were in my position, even if just a little. But at the same time, that's the point of Memories being a thing. Evolution. I wanted users to make Memories their own thing. You call Heartless 2.0? That's too generous. I used Heartless as a template for Memories. They were supposed to be generic from the start, so they'd have that much more room to grow.

If people decide to change and revamp the Memories, I have no qualms with that. But please, if you do, keep the part where the members themselves can evolve the species. Because, in my opinion, that's the only important part of them.

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Post by Etzolix on September 17th 2014, 4:04 am

Event manifestation is a lot more interesting of a concept, while also allowing members to continually customize individual Memories.

This promotes creativity among them, while also having potential weight on this universe based on how other universes have interacted. It also makes Memories less off-putting, as some people openly state they DON'T like Memories BECAUSE they're knock-offs.
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Post by Alexander on September 17th 2014, 7:20 am

Shirou wrote:If people decide to change and revamp the Memories, I have no qualms with that. But please, if you do, keep the part where the members themselves can evolve the species. Because, in my opinion, that's the only important part of them.

I would never in my life take this from them.

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Post by Etzolix on September 17th 2014, 7:22 am

what the fuck did this just become an anime

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Post by Shirou on September 17th 2014, 2:30 pm

だってびょ!!!!

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