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Post by Alexander Carvardukaras on September 6th 2014, 8:18 pm

https://kingdomhearts.forumotion.net/t11715-supplemental-battle-system

So, we should discuss this.

This is not something I am very familiar with, so pardon my ignorance and possible lack of eloquence on conveying the matter. I have my own reservations about the system, but I will discuss those later. To be blunt, I'm here to figure out what in the hell it all means. I'm looking at these statistics, and they seem fairly standard with words that we all recognize. The tier system is fairly well implemented, seeming to allow a difference in power and the feeling of growth should a person eventually choose to "level up" as sudden and jarring as the increase in statistics may seem. That is something I'll cover as I go down a list of questions.

So, I feel as though the first question I should ask is, what measure are these statistics? It provides us with their definitions and numbers, but doesn't really say much else. I know Lenny is physically stronger than me, but I'm not sure how to interpret it.

That might be a little to much to immediately go over without some sort of standard, so I will attempt to provide one with Sora. I see Sora as the baseline protagonist. He is not a Jack as commonly stated, but an individual with incredible amounts of stamina. Physically he is inferior to most opponents he fights, and magically inclined as he may be there are some builds of Sora that lack that magic, or that physical strength, or that defense while capitilizing on another statistic. It's the difference between my Sora being able to kill Shadows in a single hit at level one hundred, and yours taking two because you went a different route. So, realistically, they all only have one measure that can be fairly examined.

Sora has never overpowered an opponent. He's never been able to tank their hits for a meaningful amount of time, even with a defense build. At most, it simply improves his survivability. Likewise, his attack builds never let him go blow for blow with the bigger foes. Almost every fight revolves around Sora learning an opponent's patterns on the fly by outlasting them, and attacking when opportunities present themselves.

So, Sora is primarily in any form a character built around stamina and exploiting it to defeat his enemies. I say this because official sources identify health as a representative of stamina, and while Sora's character model never reflects fatigue his Avatar over his health bar does, showing a droopy Sora. He doesn't look injured, but tired. I have reasoning for this, but it is a whole discussion in and of itself.

This means Sora and Co. are in the lower tiered areas. Leon, Cloud, and Yuffie are all stronger than Sora, but only defeated because Sora can learn and exploit their failings while waiting for them to screw up.

Having said this, it was told to me that these stats are based on the limits of the canon, yet the topic says nothing regarding this. It simply gives numbers and descriptions, but no relevant, solid comparison. Since a number-based system is being used this can not stand. It was meant so that members know where they are, and it's quite possible if asked they would just say something along the lines of, "Well, I'm weaker than so and so." They are basically using other characters that are created on the site to reference their own strength, rather than the characters the system is defined by because they are conspicuously absent.

To add to this, progression comes across as rather sudden. Moving from level one to two is an effective doubling of a statistics almost immediately to members who are inclined to stick to the number system, especially because there is still a mindset where people do want to understandably get the most for their characters and not be undersold. It's the kind of drastic change that occurs during a drive form happening automatically, and I'm not sure if that was what was intended. It comes across as somewhat unnerving to me, to be honest. So, I'm genuinely concerned and curious about the system itself, how it was conceived, and such. For such a rigid system, it seems odd that it would lack concrete codifiers.
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Post by Etzolix on September 7th 2014, 12:20 am

It doesn't have anything concrete, because that was to be decided by the site. I don't know much about canon, so why would I randomly choose characters to compare them to?

Anyway, the leveling system perhaps is dramatic, but it's still more symbolic since it is still story system based. It's meant to help be a self expression and isn't as solid as it would be in a pure combat system.
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Post by Alexander Carvardukaras on September 7th 2014, 7:25 am

To be honest, it comes across that they actually very important. If it's to be determined by the site, then how do they go about that? Do they discuss every single value and compare characters to them in the open? They aren't a hive-mind. What one person thinks is okay is different than what another one does. In a numbered system that uncertainty shouldn't exist. You can't just create rules that we all need to follow and call them symbolic. It defeats the purpose of them being rules.

If I seem cross, I'll apologize. Early morning, brain hasn't started up, and I do admittedly find the response frustrating. It felt dismissive on my end, and I did not appreciate it. I don't think that is what you were trying to do, but that was how I interpreted it.
Alexander Carvardukaras
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Post by Etzolix on September 7th 2014, 8:26 am

There should've been a discussion for something solid. But there never ended up being one. People even asked me what they meant my response has been, "I just created the premise, it's supposed to be discussed by the site."

And it's fine. I can understand why it may seem dismissive. I just expected more contribution on site from it was created, to make it an understandable progression.
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Post by Arae Kanay on September 7th 2014, 4:23 pm

Well I do like the idea of having a more stamina based rather than an over all health system since HP is a bitch to deal with.

So though its a bit to deal with stamina as well since are we going to do things based off stamina rather than raw damage? Is there going to be now stamina points instead of health points? Or are we going to make a hybrid of the two?

To be honest doing a more honorish system would work out better, though since, admit it ,not many people here are Honorable enough to admit when their character is bested. So How do we have a combative system here when everyone thinks KH isn't about combat which I fun dumb since the entirety of the series you are FIGHTING heartless and OTHER PEOPLE or HUMANOID enemies. there shouldn't be any fighting if we want story? That is god damn stupid if we are going based off a series that had limitless fighting and even more so endless fighting moments is there really a point in forgoing the main part of the series?

Look I am all for having a relationship building thing along with having fighting since it worked before hell many friendships were forged in the heart of battle. Hell two of the biggest names got married after beating the shit out of each other.

I don't think its smart to have such an ambiguous fighting system and "stat" system if it means absolutely nothing in the long run.

"BUT ITS NOT FAIR OF SOMEONE KILLS ME!"

Shut up a story without some sort of conflict IS NOT A STORY. You know what we call that? BORING. Hell even Bratz dolls have more conflict than this site AND BRATZ DOESN'T EVEN HAVE PHYSICAL FIGHTING.

Honestly there still should be a fighting system hell come up with monthly bosses just for people to fight or do something with. You can use beefy heartless from the games if no one fights it whatever but fix up the fighting and the "stat" system please.
Arae Kanay
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Post by Occam on September 7th 2014, 4:25 pm

I will have an in depth post soon, but I'd like to summarize by saying we can measure in significant differences, i.e. 1-3 is nothing, 4-6 or 4-7 is a small difference, 8+ is where significance is achieved in difference, 15+ is where there is an overwhelming difference and 20+ is where the difference is like between a boot and an ant.

That's not a staff thing, that's just how I've viewed it personally, and I promise I'll detail it later.

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Post by Etzolix on September 7th 2014, 5:42 pm

The whole honor system is in tact, we aren't using health or stamina points. He's comparing that more stamina = you can take more damage and keep going.

Also Story vs Combat system refers to a system built around stories and the other refers to working for power.

Just for clarification.

And people can die, but they can also find ways to come back, if it's justified. People still take the no killing thing to heart.
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