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Post by Hikari on August 7th 2014, 3:26 pm

Psssssst.....the reason we're complaining is because HE ISN'T DOING ANY OF THOSE THINGS RIGHT NOW.
He's not active. He's not listening to other staff members. It IS making him look bad. He is not performing his duties as an owner.

I didn't state it wasn't such a reason. In fact, my statement was that regardless of the opinions of the members Yima should be doing his job as a site admin. I suppose it would be easy to be a bit confused by my statement due to its wording though and I ultimately apologize for not being clearer. I meant that he SHOULD be performing those duties -- rather than stating that he was performing them.

___________________
Apologies - Page 2 Elsword___add_kim_by_maryah99-d7bpa7s

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Post by Etzolix on August 7th 2014, 10:41 pm

It was a three-way co-ownership. I even said I didn't have to be included in that. God forbid I suggest that you get less power. I should also mention that you were convinced that you would always be overruled by the other co-owners, which says two things about you: 1. clearly the way you do things is different than how other people think and 2. you seem to be arrogant enough to believe that you'll always have the right judgement.

part of this was totally meant to subvert yima's authority so things could be done most hastily tho'
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Post by Etzolix on August 7th 2014, 10:43 pm

~we're all devils tip toeing through hell~
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Post by Yima on August 7th 2014, 11:16 pm

It appears as if my post and meaning have been misinterpreted based on individual preference so I shall commence being blunt. The drop in staff activity was due to my trust in them to perform their duties and life outside the site coming with its own demands which is understandable, though at that point they should step down as some have. Staff performing the duties I had laid out I have discovered from speaking to just one had been undermined by once again Shirou operating independently (without the authority to do so freely) favoring minimal communication between himself and me by personal preference in avoiding primarily imagined hoops he would see himself having to jump through; in that regard my trust and not being in each staff's business in the manner past owners have operated allowed room for small alterations such as position alterations or instituting specific jobs for each staff while they were still operating outwardly in the position I had outlined for them originally. Therefore, Staff became misguided with what their duties were supposed to be despite them having been outlined, leading to the current situation in which the staff don't speak to me until long after an issue has arisen if at all from what I have been gathering.

The first counter argument I can think up is that if I had been more active this would never have happened.

~A: Shirou can contact me from nearly anywhere at any time so I was not unreachable even if I wasn't on site, it was just easier not to bother by his perceptions from what I can tell. In the case of other staff they went to who they were receiving instruction from and it was incorrect in the direction it was being given.

~B: Part of the reason I set the system up for members to teach each other their positions and be empowered to operate in the case I was not present was to get the next generation ready to take the reins and that has not happened in the zone of trust I had allotted for that to occur.

As of now I have to manhandle the staff and how things are gonna operate to ensure they are done properly the way that had been laid out until I have a active staff I can trust to follow my instruction; I understand you did what you thought was best and I can respect that desire but this goes to show there needs to be more communication and understanding between members staff included; those are my thoughts and I need to get back to work.

If the issue is solely focused removing me as owner that isn't happening despite best intentions from all parties.

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Post by Azmot on August 8th 2014, 1:38 am

In honesty, I skipped a lot of what has been said because of the highly opinionated speech. Nothing wrong with that, but I don't want to even develop a slight bias.

No, Yima does not have time for the site. Period. He is a busy person and people in real life depend on him, way more than a normal person should be depended on. He works hard and even puts money that he doesn't have into the site: it's not a lot, but it's money regardless just to keep the site ad-free and pretty. He has large plans for the site that he never accomplishes, because so much time passes before he's able to make a move that things change and his plans either become so unpopular he fears being seen as Zexion or the plans become irrelevant. He does not RP, he does not have a character, though I know he would love one. The whole fact that he doesn't even have time for the site is the biggest issue: nobody here (besides perhaps Milo) is prepared to take on the responsibility of the site, and even then there are issues. Yima is doing everything he can to stick to what has kept the site alive while juggling his abnormally busy life. No, I'm not making excuses for him. He should give the site up or get his shit together, to be very blunt. But on the other side of the coin, we are the problem. This system has the potential to be great and mostly self running, but we don't have our shit together. We're so quick to put off shit on Yima, while we aren't even doing shit. Yes, as the one who proposed the tri-admin system, I believe it would be the most effective way to run the site: While it was intact, Y-E-S was a good trinity. However, due to Yima's fears of the site being soiled, he feels (I believe) that if his power can be undermined, it will be undermined at every opportunity. And yes, Shirou is correct: you can't be arrogant, Yima, and assume that you're always right. But Shirou, you can't be the one to always criticize someone because things aren't being done the way you like them. In the end, Yima's the owner. He decides how that power is relinquished, if at all. Tough shit. It's an RP site. At the moment, we're not even a community, because we're so ridiculously shitty. I'm sure my opinions are going to make me an even more unpopular figurehead in the memberbase, but honestly that's not important. All of us, including me, are arrogant internet nerds who can't be fucking modest enough to step back and admit that they're doing something wrong.

I'll admit it.

I'm an inactive yet still somehow condescending member who believes that things should be done a certain way because that's how I feel. I give my blind support to ideas without really considering the true effects they have on my character and the site. At every opportunity I manipulate the current system to my advantage in the most unfair and unfun way possible. I have bursts of activity with large plans that I never complete and always blame other people for it. I am a shitty member of this site. I am all these things & sadly much more. At this point, with either need that Zexion rule (which requires everyone to suck it up and stop pouting), or we need the equivalent of the Great Awakening amongst our memberbase. What in the fuck. Other sites laugh at our shitty sense of community, literally.

We are in dire need of a change.
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Post by Belysa on August 8th 2014, 2:56 am

A website gets it's---
Oh fuck it, I get sick of repeating myself. I can't physically beat it in your heads like I so very desperately wish I could.

Yima wrote:
If the issue is solely focused removing me as owner that isn't happening despite best intentions from all parties.

So what I basically translated from that was:
"I don't WANNA give up my power! I don't CARE if it's in the best interests of the site! I don't care if I'm not doing an effective job! Fuck your opinions! I'll do what I want!"

You would honestly keep what power you have, rather than hand it over to someone who could bring back the energy and activity of the website? You don't have the RIGHT to do that to this website, and you don't have the right to do that to the people who had dedicated so much of their time and effort into it!

THAT....IS FUCKING SELFISH OF YOU.


You can point fingers at the users, but honestly? I don't FUCKING BLAME THEM for not wanting to invest time and effort here! What is anybody showing for it? There is NO SOURCE OF ENERGY or ACTIVITY FROM THE PEOPLE WHO ARE SUPPOSED TO BE SETTING EXAMPLES FOR THEM, AKA: THE STAFF.

Like...I had to (illegally) post a canon profile just to bring up the subject because I *KNEW* nobody was going to talk about it unless I did something drastic and dramatic! You all would have literally stayed with the same rental system and would have been PERFECTLY OKAY WITH IT! Even if it WASN'T WHAT YOU REALLY WANTED! You were still okay with it!
That scares me a LOT. Like what else is going on around here that is just dampening the progression of the website that people just think is "perfectly okay"? That is fucking....terrifying.

And Vermillion is right! The whole RP community sees our seven year pedigree (or is it 8? Fuck it I have no idea), but we have turned into a FUCKING JOKE. We have ZERO (fucking no) CREDIBILITY ANYWHERE anymore because of a lack of activity, a lack of focus, and a lack of entertainment value.
It's PATHETIC. As someone who put so much time and effort into this website, it really fucking pisses me off that people are LAUGHING AT WHAT WE DO.

AND IT SHOULD BE PISSING YOU OFF TOO! At the VERY least it should be CONCERNING YOU, just a TEENSY WEENSY BIT!

Every owner of this website has stepped down in the past when they were either too busy to take care of it (you qualify) or they simply felt/were no longer adequate enough to do so (you also qualify as is per the margin of people you might ask.)
Every owner....except you.
What's it going to take for you to realize you are NOT DOING A GOOD JOB? How many of us is it going to take, telling you that you need to step down? Five? Twenty? Seventy? At exactly what point are you willing to realize you need to step down--when the site's dead? Is that what you want to be known as? The guy who was too wrapped up with "being in charge" to see that he was helping in killing off the website with his "stand-offish" nature? That's a good way for people to hate your guts--trust me, I went through that already.

Or hey maybe you just have a "stand-offish" approach about that too. Maybe you just have no fucks to give; I can't tell, and neither can ANYBODY ELSE. You can only be so "stand-offish" before people start to believe you just don't fucking care anymore.
And if YOU the OWNER don't seem to fucking care, WHY should ANYBODY ELSE?!

There ARE ways of getting around ownership. It's NOT "tough shit". Believe me, it can be done.
Man, I am getting like the biggest sense of deja-vu right now...

___________________
I do impressions:
"Complaining about people complaining always fixes major issues! Let's do that instead of trying to find a collective solution by talking it out amongst ourselves as a community and point fingers instead of taking responsibility for our actions! While we're at it, let's attempt to satirize and/or demonize everybody who attempt to make a suggestion! Man, we are way better at this than those other people with experience who are trying to help!"


All RP's with Belysa in them are SUSPENDED for activity until further notice.
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Post by Shirou on August 8th 2014, 6:19 am

" The drop in staff activity was due to my trust in them to perform their duties and life outside the site coming with its own demands which is understandable, though at that point they should step down as some have."

Yes. I agree. Maybe you should take your own advice.

"Staff performing the duties I had laid out I have discovered from speaking to just one had been undermined by once again Shirou operating independently (without the authority to do so freely) favoring minimal communication between himself and me by personal preference in avoiding primarily imagined hoops he would see himself having to jump through; in that regard my trust and not being in each staff's business in the manner past owners have operated allowed room for small alterations such as position alterations or instituting specific jobs for each staff while they were still operating outwardly in the position I had outlined for them originally. Therefore, Staff became misguided with what their duties were supposed to be despite them having been outlined, leading to the current situation in which the staff don't speak to me until long after an issue has arisen if at all from what I have been gathering."

Now you're just trying to place the blame on me because you saw an opportunity. Why beat around the bush? Why be vague even though you said you're being blunt? Stop trying to paint me as this renegade scapegoat. I'm going to let people know what exactly I changed in the staff guidelines. I changed the Technician's part. When I first became a Technician, I talked to you about it entailed and wanted to be one as long as I didn't have any real authority or power. I wanted the Technicians to only be there to do technical stuff on the site. They don't have the authority of a mod or an admin. So after talking to Yima about that, I went and changed the guidelines so that was to. So that I was powerless. Because I'm a big, bad guy who wants nothing but power. And yeah, that is all there is. That is where I acted independent from Yima.

"~A: Shirou can contact me from nearly anywhere at any time so I was not unreachable even if I wasn't on site, it was just easier not to bother by his perceptions from what I can tell. In the case of other staff they went to who they were receiving instruction from and it was incorrect in the direction it was being given."

I shouldn't have to be your messenger pigeon and stop acting like you're so easy to communicate with. You're not. You know what instructions that apparently misled people? I gave Cool the task of writing up a new walkthrough and posting it. I gave Drakar the task of going through character profiles and catching any errors in the stats or canon. That's it. And Drakar came to me because you're so bad to communicate with, which you can't blame on me or him, only yourself.

"As of now I have to manhandle the staff and how things are gonna operate to ensure they are done properly the way that had been laid out until I have a active staff I can trust to follow my instruction; I understand you did what you thought was best and I can respect that desire but this goes to show there needs to be more communication and understanding between members staff included; those are my thoughts and I need to get back to work."


Something I thought you were going to do with the reboot and something I've wanted to get across with this topic. Remember those conversations about improving your communication skills with the members and the staff? Remember how you agreed you were going to try? Good to know that you're FINALLY keeping your word. It's taken a few months and a topic calling you out, but finally, FINALLY, it's happening.

"If the issue is solely focused removing me as owner that isn't happening despite best intentions from all parties."

Then admit you're a bad owner. Admit that you are doing a shitty job. Say you are going to improve. And then I'll be done. I'll stop posting and I'll leave. Because when the site dies, the members will have somebody to blame other than themselves. They can blame you, because yes, it will be in part a large amount your fault. They will know that you were full of shit and that you were never going to keep your word of improving.

"But Shirou, you can't be the one to always criticize someone because things aren't being done the way you like them. In the end, Yima's the owner. He decides how that power is relinquished, if at all. Tough shit."


I can give my opinion, just like how you're giving your opinion. If Yima is being a shitty owner, I'm going to call him out on it. Talking privately in the past certainly hasn't helped.

___________________
"Hey Shi get back here silly!" Etzolix said running naked and ended up in front of people. "...." "Awkward.."

[23:25:24] Zihark joined the chat on 10/17/2011, 11:25 pm
[23:27:16] Zihark : I SUSCEDE SHIROU VELOX, YOUR IDEA WAS BETTER

[02:13:16] Etzolix : YOU WON'T
[02:13:18] Etzolix : I GOT YIMA ON A LEASH

[1:41:03 AM] "Ansem": I only have
[1:41:09 AM] "Ansem": 500 munny
[1:41:20 AM] "Ansem": ....IMA WELFARE PIMP

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Post by Alexander Carvardukaras on August 8th 2014, 6:42 pm

Hey everybody, great to be here. I love how drama draws all the little bugs like myself out of hiding. I guess we all like watching things on fire, even if we burn ourselves because we get to close.

Aaaaaand I'm too close again.

For those of you just joining us, or have a very solid rock to live under: currently Yima is being besieged because he's not here enough, and on top of being not here and even acknowledging that he's not really here has decided that keeping the website is best for him.

Not us, not you, but him. Aye, the rub is really rubby today.

See, it really isn't fair to compare Yima to Zexion. Zexion was an asshole who was fairly belligerent to the arguable point of abuse, but cared for the community nonetheless and stepped down once he felt he was able and when it was appropriate, handing the site down to Shirou and Milo because they were (and still are) the most qualified.

Yima is having the opposite problem, failing to see this as a community to lead and more of his property. He always refers to himself as the owner. Not staff or leader, but owner. As in, he possess the site, not simply runs it, which is the problem I speak of. Yima doesn't want to give up his plaything. We aren't really a community to Yima in the same sense that we were to our old leaders. Our old leaders, yes, usually were immature, showed favoritism, and in many cases committed various acts of atrocious abuse.

Yima is so militantly against bias and abuse that he's fine with this neglectful atmosphere. And yes, without Yima's oversight the whole Onyx thing went too far. That is true. So where was he? That was going on for weeks as I understand, and well after it had become an issue he finally acted on it because it had to be brought to his attention by another member. Not because he noticed it, but because somebody had to contact him after getting fed up.

And that's symptomatic of the problem. Kingdom Hearts is like Yima's red-headed step child. We're a burden. We're a job. We aren't his community, we're his chore. It's a pain in his ass for him to be here.He pays enough attention to look like he isn't starving us in his eyes. But Yima has always been a victim in his whole career on KH at the hands of the very bullies he now desperately tries to avoid comparison to, like playground politics matter versus being a leader.

Now, he gets to play Martyr, which is like being a victim except you can feel heroic for getting "bullied".

All this conversation is doing is reinforcing him. Better still, he completely shifted the point of the argument, which is he's not here and thus a poor caretaker of the site, onto Shirou with literally the most irrelevant deflection I've seen in this topic. Who cares what Shirou did? It's not about him at the moment, it's about Yima, and he knows it.

And yet we have to have this "break the hero" speech because Yima is under the impression he's in the right, hence a Martyr. Which means we have to keep having it. We can't stop at this point, because then he walks away and nothing changes.

And if nothing changes, this site will die.

And Yima is aware of that, I'm more than sure.

Now don't get me wrong. I dislike Yima so intensely that thinking about him sends me into angry spirals. I trusted this guy. He drove me to extremes that I'm not proud of too simply because he refuses to talk and wants to take the easy way, though my actions are wholly my fault and not his because I was weak enough to succumb to my baser urges.

At the same time, we aren't telling Yima he has to leave KH. In fact, if I didn't have to deal with Yima as a, pardon the language, ignorant jackass with uncheckable power, I'd probably enjoy being in his presence again. Yima doesn't have to leave. He just has to step down so somebody better can step up.

And really, that shouldn't be treated as a knock on Yima. He's a busy dude. He knows that about himself, but I think he's worried about becoming irrelevant. Unfortunately Yima, that happens. People change, things move on, and you have to say goodbye even to old friends eventually. It would be better if you stepped down on good terms and were remembered for the reasonable person you think you are, versus the guy who selfishly and stubbornly held onto a website he couldn't take care of. Especially one that does nothing but bother you to be on. That's gotta be some shit when a game becomes an obligation.

Sadly, he's going to largely ignore most of this post, pick the few weak points in it, attack my reputation while attempting to dissect the argument, and that's if he even bothers to respond. He may just ban me outright (fun fact: I'm not his favorite person) and delete the post, and make it seem as though I was never here. Is he really that petty? I wish I could say at this point, but I don't actually know.
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Post by Alexander Carvardukaras on August 8th 2014, 10:04 pm

Okay, so I don't know if I'm cutting anybody off with this post and if I am apologies, but here is my summary observation, followed by a suggestion.

My understanding of the situation is something like this:

Members blame Yima for inactivity
Ex-Staff (and maybe current?) blames Yima for Inactivity
Both hold Yima accountable for his own absence.
Both of these link Yima's own absence as a major contributing factor to lack of activity, citing lack of leadership.
They ain't happy.

Members are flaming the blamers, not defending Yima's inactivity but him being the cause of the site-wide drop of activity.
They ain't happy.

Yima is basically here out of obligation, and lacks time to be here more than he is.
He ain't happy.

So we have a giant, jumbly cluster-fuck of unhappy people who want to jump one-another's cases. Alright, I get that, it happens. Comes with being a social human being on the internet. But nobody, and I mean nobody, is willing to take blame for anything. It keeps getting shifted, and bitter sentiments keep finding a way to justify themselves. Yima won't back down while he feels attacked. History proves this alone. So, I have a better idea.

Yima, though I have great disdain for you, I wish to make this process as painless for you as possible. We all know it has to happen. You will step down eventually. Hopefully before you grow a big-ass beard and die. But, you will not relinquish control suddenly. Just dropping it in somebody's lap and walking away doesn't seem as though it would be a valid method of release. Realistically, we could make this about the members or the site or do any variety of emotional please but the fact of the matter is, I am right, and you do see this as a chore. I get the strange, sneaking feeling you don't want to pass down the site for two reasons. I can't decipher one, but the other I'm pretty sure has to do with you not wanting to thrust a burden upon somebody. After all, if you see the site as work, you might imagine that others would envision it in a similar fashion.

Alright. So, first you need to a choose a person that you trust and communicate with often who is familiar with the function and members of KHRPG. I suggest Milo, because he seems to be the most obvious. He's level headed, he's intelligent, he's calm, he's creative, and he's here.

So, take Milo, and make him an Administrator. This next part would be the hardest, but it's the most crucial. You don't have to step down at the phase. But, this will let you observe Milo as he works. It'll be hard because administrators do things differently based on their communities, and he will naturally make some choices that you have a right to question. I would insist that you let him make them.

With the site in Milo's care, and Milo under your watch, take more time to finish your character profile and level yourself off from staff-oriented duties. In time, you'll be able to let Milo have more and more control and you'll be fine with not needing to direct the site. Eventually you will decide to hand control over to Milo completely. This will help you manage your busy schedule. Since you aren't staff at this imagined point, you aren't required to be here as much. Kingdom Hearts RPG will start to feel like less of a burden and gradually in your mind HOPEFULLY go back to being a game, like it was meant to be.

That's my honest suggestion. Right now we're facing a situation where nobody is satisfied, and not sure if you guys are ready for this mind-blowing plot twist but that's really not working out for the environment of the site. If you want to talk toxic? Everybody is sipping on cyanide right now.
Alexander Carvardukaras
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Post by Azmot on August 9th 2014, 3:03 am

Already suggested it, Blue, before you brought it up. That and a myriad of options are still being discussed.

Hey, good job on the idea though. It's brilliant tbh.

But uh without revealing any information or stepping out of boundaries of decency, yes, we have been discussing possible solutions rigorously (though we ended conversations a bit ago). Right now I am looking at a possible negotiations call, but that's all me and is proving difficult. I ask that you all be patient while we can begin to formulate a way to reach an ideal compromise and what we can immediately do to alleviate the stress of the situation before doing something hastily, buying enough time for a proper plan of action to be formulated.

Thank you for your patience.
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