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Post by Etzolix on July 22nd 2014, 4:57 am

Should characters owned by Disney or Square Enix be allowed, if they don't have a world in the Kingdom Hearts franchise? i.e Elsa, from Frozen.

We have a couple things established.

We can rent canons, not claim them permanently. This means even if they were allowed, no one would be able to permanently claim them.

Secondly, we've established that we can use characters from the respective series. For example, despite never being part of the Lion King world, Simba's Daughter, Kiara, would likely be allowed due existing in the movies. However, it's likely people might want stricter regulations on what canons we can use.

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Post by Eno on July 22nd 2014, 8:29 am

I don't believe we should be able to. One of the reasons behind the reboot in the first place was to have a keep a better eye on the canonical universe that this site is a part of. While that does restrict us I feel that its for the better.

Letting characters like Elsa be allowed, among others should other people here wish to use them, (i.e. from tangled, princess and the frog, star wars, etc.) just opens a door allowing people to stretch the rules. Next thing you know we'll be having OC jedi/sith, SOLDIERS from FF7, Garden Graduates from FF8, etc run around because they're characters Disney or Square Enix happens to own. You'd end up getting the argument, "You let the CANON characters exist, why not let OC's exist too?"

I believe that in turn may start a break down that would just slowly bring us back to where we were before: a KH site in name alone. That's something I'd like to avoid. Call me pessimistic, but something small like this can snowball into something much more. Though us having characters as creatures that aren't even in the KH universe isn't a good situation either.

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Post by Shirou on July 22nd 2014, 9:10 am

I believe the extent of canon we can rely on is that of the world's respective franchise. So, like Milo said, we can use characters from the Lion King sequel.

I also largely agree with Eno's sentiments. We should keep canon exclusively to KH characters. It's an argument of quantity over quality, in my opinion. The more expanded we make the canon, the more it becomes some generic, Disney/Square Enix crossover RP site.

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Post by Belysa on July 22nd 2014, 2:15 pm

Eno wrote:You'd end up getting the argument, "You let the CANON characters exist, why not let OC's exist too?"

I believe that in turn may start a break down that would just slowly bring us back to where we were before: a KH site in name alone. That's something I'd like to avoid. Call me pessimistic, but something small like this can snowball into something much more. Though us having characters as creatures that aren't even in the KH universe isn't a good situation either.

Hi.
We're already at that point.

Let's be honest. We are a clusterfuck of OC's in a universe we barely contribute any thought to.  We've always been like that--since the beginning really--but whereas we had a group of canons that always contributed a feeling that there was at least SOME form of canonicity to the site... Sure, we threw in some Heartless and Nobody attacks, we acknowledged what canons had done in the past, and we had some minor developments in the canon area.
But to be perfectly straight up, it seriously wasn't that much.

But then again....we didn't care back then, did we? That thought didn't cross our minds. We wrote for the sake of writing, and there was enough relation to the universe we were in to make it look passable as a KHRPF.

EDIT: To add another point...
*Renting* Canons?
Why would you want to RENT a canon when you can apply to another website and get that canon for GOOD? Like as in not for a certain period but for however the hell long you wanted?
I hate to compare apples to watermelons here, but seriously...why? Why would you waste your hard-earned munny on something like CANONS when you can get something new for your completely unoriginal and boring OC that you're in love with but everybody else thinks is sort of "meh"?

Do you see why this is a PROBLEM? What is so appealing about having a canon if they're barely going to be able to influence anything? Isn't the WHOLE POINT of Kingdom Hearts about different character influencing our main heroes and teaching them lessons while they're on their journey?


[/edit]

You let the OC's exist. In fact our site is ENTIRELY made up of OC's. So, going back to your argument...
Eno wrote:You'd end up getting the argument, "You let the CANON characters exist, why not let OC's exist too?"

You let the OC's exist. You let some REALLY, REALLY questionable OC's exist. So why not let the actual canons, or even sub-canons, exist? Does that not seem ass-backwards to you that we have a KH website with no actual KH characters?

"Oh but you can rent the--"
...You shouldn't have to rent KINGDOM HEARTS CHARACTERS on a KINGDOM HEARTS ROLE PLAYING FORUM. The whole purpose of that game was to INTERACT WITH DISNEY CHARACTERS. THAT IS PART OF THE MAIN THEME OF KINGDOM HEARTS TO BEGIN WITH. IT ISN'T KINGDOM HEARTS WITHOUT DISNEY.

"But we have the worlds--"
Locations? Locations do not make a compelling story. Locations do not give you a reason to do something. Locations don't give a character a desire or a willpower to GO OUT AND DO SOMETHING.
((...we will make a case for Master Xehanort, or rather we would, save for the argument that the MAN WAS CURIOUS about life outside of his own, therefore driving him to seek out a new location.))
Point being....having the Disney Worlds is not enough to make this place a Kingdom Hearts website. Having Heartless and Nobodies is not enough. Occasionally having canons appear and then mysteriously vanishing into who-the-fuck-knows-where for no discernible reason...is not going to make any sense, and isn't going to WORK.

Eno makes the point that allowing canons would be opening a door to people stretching the rules.

...what?

So what you're telling me is:  
Half-Dragon character = OK.
 Keyblade-Wielding Main Character which the entire story and universe revolves around = NO.


Canons exist in the laws of the universe they are IN. Meaning, Kingdom Hearts canons would have to adhere to the laws of the Kingdom Hearts universe. Because they are playing on this forum, they would also have to adhere to the forum rules.
So exactly WHERE are you seeing ANY form of problem with ANY canon?

I'll humor you, Eno. If you can give me an example of an action of ANY canon that would be breaking the rules, that an OC couldn't do, by all means, I will stop pursuing the matter entirely. GIVE ME ONE EXAMPLE.


But I'll further humor those of you on the offensive with another point in your favor. Let's be more honest. The canons we had in the past...were horrible at keeping in character. Off the top of my head, I can really only think of ONE canon who only SORT of stayed in character most of the time....but that was because we didn't...really care back then. That thought hadn't really occurred to me personally until I went off adventuring onto other RP websites, and then looked back. I won't name names, but you already know those of you who had been around, exactly who I am talking about when I say... "bad canons."

But the difference between then, and now, is that we're aware of how canons SHOULD be played and have a playerbase that would point out if something was out of place. So the likelihood of people abusing the power of a canon....is EXTREMELY SMALL. Even if it WERE abused, staff would notice and remedy the situation anyway.

So if we really step back and look at that logic...you can conclude that....

Complaining about canons is basically the EXACT SAME ARGUMENT AS COMPLAINING ABOUT OC's.

Both can be abused. Both can be stupidly powerful. Both are heavily monitored by the staff. ((I use the word "heavily" very loosely when it comes to OC's...)) The only differences between a CANON and an OC is that the True Lore revolves around Canons, and Canons have a very specific power limit as described in the games.
That is LITERALLY IT. Canons have higher power, and WAY more restriction on them. If you don't want to play a canon, don't! If you do want to play a canon, play it well!
All these OC's and you're worried about CANONS? Canons who have a strict set of restrictions and personalities and histories and abilities? Canons who are very CLEARLY defined in their respective media and couldn't possibly be abused unless someone wasn't paying attention?

OC's have WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more potential for abuse than canons! I would know! I abused the everloving hell out of Pinky's reincarnation thing just to wiggle out of a situation. How could anybody else argue? It was my lore. I was the only one who established it, and therefore was the only person who could question it legitimately.
And BISCUITS...The Man....literally....was friends...with DEATH.
Onyx...WAS BLOWING UP ENTIRE WORLDS.
I've already read topics...where people are walking into the Underworld and just plucking people back from the hands of death like they're HADES. With NO PRIOR TRAINING in Dark Arts, or anything!

....and CANONS are going to be abused? You're worried about...canons?

EDIT:
I would also like to point out....
THAT CANONS ARE NOT THAT COMPLEX.
I would like to remind everybody...that KINGDOM HEARTS CAME OUT WHEN I WAS TEN YEARS OLD. YOU HAVE PROBABLY BEEN WATCHING DISNEY SINCE YOU WERE FOUR.

Which means when you tell us that people would abuse canons, that you are essentially telling everybody that we are too fucking idiotic to relate to CHILDREN'S CARTOON CHARACTERS.

If we looked at an overall history of Canon/OC ratios, guess what you would find?
You're afraid of CANONS overtaking OC's?

IT HAS BEEN THE EXACT....OPPOSITE....SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THIS WEBSITE'S CREATION.
I shit you not. Anybody who has been here long can attest that information is true.
There has never, EVER, been ANY point in ANY of KHRPF's ENTIRE HISTORY where the canons have EVER outnumbered OC's.
And even FEWER of the Canons we HAVE had have EVER really influenced much of anything. Off the top of my head, I can name SIX: Ansem, Riku, Kairi, Roxas, Zexion, and Xemnas.

So stop freaking the hell out and panicking that your poor Gary or Mary Sue is going to get steamrolled. The likelihood that the Canon/OC ratio is ever going to be out of your favor is VERY small. Now that we are allowed multiple characters, I can actually see people wanting to take up canons to better even things out and make things more dynamic.

The issue....is whether or not PEOPLE PAY ATTENTION AND POINT OUT WHEN PEOPLE ARE OVERSTEPPING THEIR BOUNDS OR NOT.
That is HOW we got into this shit storm to begin with!
[/EDIT]



Ironically, Shirou is afraid of making this website generic, when that is EXACTLY what you're doing when you don't allow canons to exist. You get a very standard, very boring, extremely bland snorefest of OC's, who have little to no motivation and either sit around and have barely noticable misadventures, or just post 497107540710457701734057 fight topics that go absolutely nowhere, with maybe an event thrown in that also leads nowhere.
((...and we JUST finished rebooting the site so that wouldn't happen, so we want to avoid that again, don't we?))

Are you really so afraid of becoming like the other KH websites? We're one of the oldest KHRP websites on the internet. Most of what we did, went on to found those other websites you're so afraid of becoming. The systems we developed are STILL being used by other people.
...and you're worried about us copying them?
If you're so horribly frightened of being a copy of someone else, find something to make you unique while STILL MAKING SENSE. Because EVERY single canon VANISHING into thin air does NOT.

Other websites manage to keep canons and OC's balanced, while also making plots and stories that...make sense. Are you saying we're incapable of doing that? I certainly don't think so.

Again, with horrendous irony, people want freedom for their OCs...while they restrict freedom entirely for other styles of players. There is SO much potential to being unique by allowing various styles of Disney characters to exist! There is an infinitely-expanding flux of interesting, well-written characters that could be used to make things more interactive and more engaging for members!
Hell, you have Duck Tales characters sitting in the KH-verse, (and even influencing the development of all three of our main heroes in BBS) which would mean that NOMURA HIMSELF acknowledges the size, the scale, the influence, and the potential of sub-scale Disney Characters.

...and you don't.
See where I'm having issues trying to find this restriction logical?


The issue we have...is that we really do not have many OC's with real motivation to go out there and make things interesting. With the canons, people KNOW what their motivations are. People KNOW their stories and how they act, so they KNOW what to expect from them. The whole reason Kingdom Hearts WORKED AS A GAME was because people were nostalgic for Disney movies and characters and the interaction between them (as Sora, who acted as a median between the player and the Disney Characters) and the Disney Characters felt LEGITIMATE!!!!

And that fact makes me wonder why people are even here on a Kingdom Hearts website at all. If that's really the case, if everything really just revolves around the OC's, let's just all move to a multi-universe RPing forum with no canons and a made up lore and just muck about as we please.

Like the whole REASON I even went with Belysa and *not* Pinky  was because I felt like we were lacking in some KH feels--characters that were molded and born in these worlds who share the feelings of people who would fit in the story like actual characters. It feels like 90% of the OC's here were just slapped into the KH universe without really considering the KH Universe. They're here in it, but it's barely acknowledged and barely considered in the history or how any of this really affects their personalities...nothing. You exist in the KH verse...without really existing in the KH verse.

Which is not to say ANY of those characters were bad! Some of the most fond of my memories include OC's that definitely did NOT fit into Kingdom Hearts, like Celox or Swaiti--but you also had characters that DID, like MorpheusZero (old Morpheus...) and Trickster.
It is possible to create an OC that doesn't FEEL like an OC. That's the whole idea of trying to put an OC into a specific universe, isn't it? Making your own thing while still keeping true to the original lore of wherever you're going?

Instead of allowing people to make whatever the hell they want.......moderate character profiles so this sort of thing could be prevented before people had a chance to dick about in RPs?
That's sort of the reason why we did that for so long...or probably why other sites still do it. Maybe.

That's how you remove the threat of the poorly written like....
"My character was bitten by Sora's Heartless, and became a super embodiment of the Darkness, but not before he narrowly escaped Hojo's lab after becoming a secret SOLDIER, stole Gilgamesh's swords, got a Keyblade by touching Yen Sid's robes, and then kicked Caius Ballad in the crotch so hard that he exploded and died!"

If you don't want certain types of characters...PUT UP A RULE THAT RESTRICTS THEM.
You don't want Jedi? Tell people there can't be Jedi!
You don't want Deadpool? Tell people you can't have him!
You don't want generic SOLDIER or SEED graduates? Who said we had to consider the Final Fantasy worlds at all? We can continue on our merry way, acknowledging that the Final Fantasy canons came from the Kingdom Hearts worlds, and that none of their original stories ever even happened. (IE: Squall Leonheart.)
You don't want Pixar Characters running around? Say you can't!

Hell we can pretend none of the above things even exist. That's okay to do! You're ALLOWED to have your cake and choose not to eat certain sections of it! ...but it MAKES NO SENSE if you decide to make a cake and then decide the cake is too moist for your liking and then just whip out a can of frosting, put it in a pan, and call it cake! 'Cause that's not cake!


You don't want goofy-sounding OC's with "meh"-ly written backstories or motivations?
Too late. They're already here.  


[/walloftext]


Last edited by Belysa on July 22nd 2014, 6:56 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : When I use caps, I'm not screaming...I'm emphasizing.)

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Post by Etzolix on July 22nd 2014, 2:35 pm

And that fact makes me wonder why people are even here on a Kingdom Hearts website at all. If that's really the case, if everything really just revolves around the OC's, let's just all move to a multi-universe RPing forum with no canons and a made up lore and just muck about as we please.

Yes, let's do this. Not sarcastic.

Edit: Actually, nvm. I really hate RPing in a multiverse.
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Post by Paul:) on July 22nd 2014, 3:42 pm

I am for Canons, I agree with Pinky here.
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Post by Etzolix on July 22nd 2014, 9:13 pm

Which kind of Canons and under what stipulations? There are multiple points being made here. So, clarifying which and why is important.

Even if she's already stated points you agree with, reiterating is never bad, as it cements that multiple people are on the same page and understand the context of which they agree with.

And stuff.
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Post by Occam on July 22nd 2014, 11:03 pm

I will make a longer post at a later date, but right now I'll touch on what is on my mind.

Basically, there is nothing wrong with OC's in this universe, in fact that's why the RP exists. It doesn't matter what the OC is as long as it doesn't break lore, which means being a half-dragon should be OK due to the fact it doesn't effect anyone and it isn't gamebreaking. Actions and aspects are two different things obviously, so I was only referencing the aspects of a character. The aspects of a character just need to follow simple guidelines to ensure fairness and to ensure that it doesn't break the game. The presence of canons being rented has a very important effect: development for both OC's and that canon's presence in this universe by the site as a whole, which means we all are adding to that canon the more its used.

This means the canon isn't reserved for one single member (though during a topic, one person posts for the canon to maintain consistency). By renting the canons, no price is paid and it ensures we don't have a paradox of development. It is true hardly anyone stayed true to the character, save for Jack Sparrow of my memory because Leo played a really good Jack imo....in fact it was at Method Acting levels >.>. Anyways, canons aren't exclusive because some might want to use the canon for something but cannot because another member causes the character of the canon to ruin any plot ideas they had. That said, we all must respect the historia much more. The events that occur have an impact on the worlds now, and that goes for the canon historia.

Anything done with a canon is now recorded, and that makes every topic matter. Although members will use the canon the way they want, they must still respect the historia and not break that site-made lore. Say Mickey loses an arm (doubtful, but a scenario nonetheless). From the end of that topic onward, Mickey is now single-armed until something changes that (subtraction or addition). This adds an element of consequences, cause and effect, etc. Also, it isn't right to assume that OC's have no real motivation (not saying you did, Pinky, but you don't really know what's on the creator's mind). Characters who don't seem like they fit might in the future, and the creator might plan on making a drastic change but requiring that some form of development take place.

You did mention creating Belysa for KH reasons, but not all characters have to be a classic KH character. I actually plan on two of my characters obtaining a keyblade through noble efforts or corruption (one of them shall join THA DARK SIDE). That is how I am trying to implement them, and there are deeper ideas that are in my head. You may not know them, others may not, but that just means OC's have more to them then one may realize. Maybe not right now, but planning does exist.

Also, the canons that would be breaking the rules if enforced upon them would be ones along the lines of Xigbar with his cheating space magic ('twas a cheap shot to fling blue arrows). Various, VARIOUS characters have some sort of cheap magic that wasn't allowed before, like Xemnas' space magic, or Luxord's space and semi-time magic. Mostly villains, of course. Ansem, for one, could consume worlds in darkness technically. Back to the point, Canons can't be abused like before, especially on the system before the last story system. But now, we could rp as them but it isn't about abuse anymore, it's about lore.

We can't keep having things happen that goes unchecked or unnoticed, if someone does something small, it won't be noticed of course. If someone destroys or builds something significant, it has to be recognized. We need to enforce the idea that everyone's actions matter now. So whatever people do with a canon matters more, which means we should give people the chance to use a canon and when one person plays it, they have total control over how it is used. An OC is someone's creation, a canon is a major part of the world they are from. I.e. King Mickey rules Disney Town. I'm pretty sure him passing gas is important (being facetious here).

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Post by Hikari on July 22nd 2014, 11:21 pm

If we stop what we're doing with canons and go back to the old system we change it so that canons are affected not by the entire site but by a single person. We change their importance from a being the entire site is able to affect to yet another being driven solely by a single user. If somebody takes a canon there's nothing to stop them from just playing in private topics and avoiding a character who wants to pursue a plot with that canon because of OOC relations, desire to pursue a different plot, or etcetera.

We have it so that users rent canons so that everyone can interact with them rather than making them exclusive to a single user's desires. Furthermore, how do we decide who is more worthy of a canon? Why does coming in first and applying for the application mean you get accepted? What happens when users come on here wanting to play a canon only to find out it was taken already because they didn't get here first? By removing the current system we restrict the freedom of users more than we do now. It doesn't matter who is more deserving when we implement this. What matters is that you get here first. It rewards those who come up with a post that gets approved quicker and punishes newcomers to the site or those who take longer time finishing their sheet either to improve the quality of it or just because they're slower at composing sheets than others.

This current system is the most fair. It provides equal freedom to all members under the obligation that they can respect both the canon and the events that have affected him/her. If we allow members to play canons we give up that in exchange for the personal enjoyment of a single user. It restricts access to them and overall ruins what we have setup so that somebody can get to enjoy playing as Mickey or Peter Pan.

With original characters we don't have this problem. There's a one in a million chance of somebody posting up the exact same character as somebody else because all the users have their own different identities and desires. Original characters will end up different from each other because of the freedom we allow to compose their identity. Compare that to a canon character. Players of these characters aren't free to come up with their own identity for it. When people come hoping to play a canon character they're going to be disappointed that they can't go with the identity they wanted since somebody else took it. At best they'll move on and choose a different character -- at worst they could end up quitting the site to move to a different one or becoming hostile to the person who took the canon they wanted.

The entire argument for allowing users to play as canons undermines the value we've put into staying true to the laws and lore of the universe. It also raises or provides the potential to raise the problems above. All this is driven by putting the desires of the individual over the desires of the many.

End the.

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Post by Belysa on July 23rd 2014, 1:55 am

Zeikke wrote:
Also, the canons that would be breaking the rules if enforced upon them would be ones along the lines of Xigbar with his cheating space magic ('twas a cheap shot to fling blue arrows). Various, VARIOUS characters have some sort of cheap magic that wasn't allowed before, like Xemnas' space magic, or Luxord's space and semi-time magic. Mostly villains, of course. Ansem, for one, could consume worlds in darkness technically. Back to the point, Canons can't be abused like before, especially on the system before the last story system. But now, we could rp as them but it isn't about abuse anymore, it's about lore.
See, see, now here's the thing with that...because I KNEW someone was going to mention Xigbar, Xemnas, or Luxord.

We've HAD those characters on this site before in previous history. I don't remember a single instance where ANY of them severely abused their canon powers outside of the means of it being part of their character. We HAD restrictions on those types of spells and abilities. We HAD people checking profiles and making sure that there was nothing insanely horrible with them.
Which is WHY it wasn't abused.

Edit: No, wait, I'm mistaken. Zexion did abuse his powers...He had an Ice Titan summon and an assload of copycat bullshit powers, but he was the fucking owner....what were we going to do, tell him he was wrong and get banned? Or WORSE, risk getting Zexion'd in public and get added to his long list of victims?
HA HA.
No.

In fact (fuck it, I'm going to name-shame them here, they're not around anyway--) there's only really a VERY small handful of incidents where canons have really been abusive in respects to their abilities.
One of them....was without question, Paleo-Ansem. The guy literally tried to break my neck with a single kick once. He was, after a lot of people left, unbeatable for a while, not because of his CHARACTER, but because we considered post count = power back in the days. The same was pretty much applied to Lenneth for the same reason.
Then there was Riku, who once attempted to try and slice someone in half during a counter-raid. I can't remember who it was specifically, but everybody made a HUGE stink about it. (I think it was Leo?)
I think Xemnas was seriously harassed by staff about (LOL) kidnapping Forte and Yima for a couple of months, but that wasn't really out of the realm of his character--it'd been proven before that people (Kairi) had been taken prisoner by the Organization in the past. Even a couple of OC's (Morpheus, Neo, and a couple of others) drew their origins from that scenario in particular.

But you know WHY they got away with it?
'Cause....nobody....CALLED THEM OUT FOR IT.
At that point, we didn't care. We were a bunch of kids just typing out shit because it was something to chew up time.
....but things change. It's pretty clear that when people DON'T call other people out for bullshit, that we have people abuse the system and make things worse for everybody over the course of SEVERAL GENERATIONS OF ROLE PLAYERS. ((IE: Biscuits. I realize I keep blaming him a lot, but this is because out of everybody, he was THE WORST offender when you look back.))

The point stands...Everybody is like:
Non-KH Canon Characters Beaker_zps7da3ae16
OH GOD THE CANONS ARE GONNA GET ABUSED!

...but historically speaking, it's been the OC's THAT HAVE BEEN MORE ABUSED THAN *ALL* OF THE CANONS WE HAVE *EVER* HAD COMBINED.
I am not even SLIGHTLY exaggerating when I say Biscuit's bullshittery ALONE was more than enough to cover the abuse from the OC side, let alone combining everything else that people did. We can look back and see that by an ENORMOUS margin, OC's have been FAR more heavily abusive to the system as a whole than canons.

Again, I make the argument that Canons have a very specific and very standard set of guidelines and personalities that allow for people to press the bullshit button when they see something if off. I am not about to go running around with Elsa with a snow-bazooka, blowing off people's heads when I feel like it and scream-singing "Let it Go" at the top of my lungs.

OC's do not work that way....as MUCH. Because we have shittons of freedom it gives people a TON more wiggle room and therefore a TON more ability to get away with shit. We have a standard, but let's be honest...
We RARELY adhere to it. We RARELY enforce it.

And that's part of the problem. Everybody freaks the hell out about abuse and overpoweredness, but NOBODY steps up to call bullshit. ....And if you are, somebody openly weeps in the chatbox, or hides under the skirt of a random admin.
"But it was the WAY you said it! Y U SO MEAN?!" T^T

Dude. The world's not made of sugary sunshiney goodness. Get over it. People are going to say mean things to you. Some of us fossils have even joked around on the subject, wondering how most of you would have reacted to some of the shit we were told when we were little wee whippersnappers.
You guys think *I* am too personal? Compared to Zexion, Celox, and old-school MorpheusZero, I am a SAINT in what critiques I give. ((Protip: There's a REASON why some of these names are not just nouns...they are VERBS. IE: Zexion'd, Celox'd...None of the verb forms of any of these being at all pleasant. The fossils can testify.))


Zeikke wrote:
We can't keep having things happen that goes unchecked or unnoticed, if someone does something small, it won't be noticed of course. If someone destroys or builds something significant, it has to be recognized. We need to enforce the idea that everyone's actions matter now.
SOMEONE GETS IT.

Zeikke wrote:So whatever people do with a canon matters more, which means we should give people the chance to use a canon and when one person plays it, they have total control over how it is used. An OC is someone's creation, a canon is a major part of the world they are from. I.e. King Mickey rules Disney Town. I'm pretty sure him passing gas is important (being facetious here).
....goddamnit.
Is that not the ENTIRE point of allowing one person to control it? If people disagree with the way someone is playing said canon, who is to say that people can't....oh I don't know....
COMPLAIN TO THE STAFF ABOUT IT?!

Why not have people VOTE on if access should be revoked if they feel a canon is not being portrayed or used properly?

Over 99% of the issues we have could be solved if people would just man up and address them! We're all people here, nobody's going to bite your head off for having an opinion.
...well, at least not anymore. Believe me, some of the previously mentioned verb-nouns were very closely related to having someone bite your head off.


Aliyah wrote:
If we stop what we're doing with canons and go back to the old system we change it so that canons are affected not by the entire site but by a single person. We change their importance from a being the entire site is able to affect to yet another being driven solely by a single user. If somebody takes a canon there's nothing to stop them from just playing in private topics and avoiding a character who wants to pursue a plot with that canon because of OOC relations, desire to pursue a different plot, or etcetera.
And how is this any different than one person constantly renting out the same canon, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and--?


Aliyah wrote:
Furthermore, how do we decide who is more worthy of a canon? Why does coming in first and applying for the application mean you get accepted?
What happens when users come on here wanting to play a canon only to find out it was taken already because they didn't get here first?
By removing the current system we restrict the freedom of users more than we do now. It doesn't matter who is more deserving when we implement this.
What matters is that you get here first. It rewards those who come up with a post that gets approved quicker and punishes newcomers to the site or those who take longer time finishing their sheet either to improve the quality of it or just because they're slower at composing sheets than others.
...Let's dissect this a sentence at a time.

1 & 2:) ...One may consider...LOOKING AT THEIR APPLICATION.
This is not rocket science. You read their application and judge it based off of what you know about that canon. If it's good, you accept it. If it's not, you don't. LITERALLY no different than looking at an OC's Pro--
...oh wait, but we don't do that anymore either...

3:) You said it yourself. You either move on to another character, or you quit entirely. People DO have multiple favorite characters, you know.
But while you're sitting there, fretting about whether or not someone's feelings are hurt because a canon's taken and it's not someone first choice...Guess what people who DO want canons who come here to one of the most recognized KHRPF communities on the internet and see that you, by technical standards, don't allow them to be playable, even if that person demonstrates that they are MORE than capable of understanding the basic principles of (again) a CHARACTER WRITTEN FOR CHILDREN TO UNDERSTAND?
Mostly? Laugh. I'm not making that up either. Then they go off to a "better" site.

And again, not to sound snotty, but we are THE Kingdom Hearts Role Playing Forum. We always have been. People have modeled off this website's example for several generations of RPing. (Not exaggerating.) Should we not be setting a standard? Are we not...for lack of a more proper word to use, better?

4:) ...No.
You RESTRICT freedom of choice when you decided to go communist on the canons. Now everybody is FORCED INTO MAKING OC's. In the same token that not everybody is "worthy" of a canon, not everybody is "worthy" of making up a character. Some people like doing one or the other! They should NOT be thrown into a side just because you're antsy.

5, 6, etc:) *facedesk*
No! You It does NOT matter who gets there first! It is QUALITY over QUICKNESS.
See, if you actually like...looked over profiles and approved them, this wouldn't be a problem.

Like, the sheer AMOUNT of problems that could be solved simply by LOOKING OVER PROFILES AND APPROVING THEM BEFORE THEY WENT OUT AND RP'd, is astounding. That's how IMPORTANT these sorts of things are.

Aliyah wrote:
This current system is the most fair. It provides equal freedom to all members under the obligation that they can respect both the canon and the events that have affected him/her. If we allow members to play canons we give up that in exchange for the personal enjoyment of a single user. It restricts access to them and overall ruins what we have setup so that somebody can get to enjoy playing as Mickey or Peter Pan.
I make the argument, that not everybody has a NICHE for playing these characters.
In the same token, not everybody has a niche for OC's.
Because you decided to go all Joseph Stalin on the canons, this now means that quite literally anybody can waltz around as Aqua, handing out Keyblades to anybody they feel like. Again, I make the point that OC's can be just as abused, or (and in the case of our site's history,) even MORE abused than them. That holds the reverse.

You know what counters that? I'm being general here, it would counter literally all of the issues we have currently.
PAYING ATTENTION.

Aliyah wrote:
With original characters we don't have this problem. There's a one in a million chance of somebody posting up the exact same character as somebody else because all the users have their own different identities and desires. Original characters will end up different from each other because of the freedom we allow to compose their identity. Compare that to a canon character. Players of these characters aren't free to come up with their own identity for it. When people come hoping to play a canon character they're going to be disappointed that they can't go with the identity they wanted since somebody else took it. At best they'll move on and choose a different character -- at worst they could end up quitting the site to move to a different one or becoming hostile to the person who took the canon they wanted.

Again...you RESTRICT freedom of choice when you decide that EVERYBODY who registers ABSOLUTELY HAS to make an OC. So how is that fair to them, hm?

Aliyah wrote:
The entire argument for allowing users to play as canons undermines the value we've put into staying true to the laws and lore of the universe. It also raises or provides the potential to raise the problems above. All this is driven by putting the desires of the individual over the desires of the many.

...Do you not realize that by restricting canons to users that you are actually doing the OPPOSITE of what the original lore and the lore of the universe is TRYING TO CONVEY? Are you REALLY telling me that you guys are so incapable of handling "the potential to raise the problems above"? Are we not capable human beings, with intelligent thought and problem-solving abilities? You can't tell me you can't figure out how to close up loopholes with a collective group of people all tackling the same issues?

On that final sentence...
When I argue the validity of canons and OC's, it's not typically for my own gain. Anybody who personally knows me can testify when I make a choice, there are reasons behind it that usually involve someone else's needs rather than my own.
In THIS case in particular, I am thinking about all the potential users we COULD be having if we stopped taking such a safe path. Users, who may WANT to take up canons--people we may have lost BECAUSE that ability was stripped from them.
So is it REALLY worth being fair to the (teeny tiny itsy bitsy) group of active users we currently have compared to the potential of the users we COULD be getting if we DID allow for more versatility and ACTUAL freedom?


Solution: GIVE TO RESPONSIBLE USERS. DETERMINE SAID RESPONSIBILITY BY THE QUALITY OF THEIR APPLICATION. APPLY STRATEGY TO OC'S TO PREVENT ABUSE OF POWER. ADD 1/2 CUP OF CREATIVE AND PROVOKING CONTENT. DOUSE GENEROUSLY WITH INTERACTION BETWEEN CHARACTERS. APPLY INTERESTING FEATURES DIRECTLY TO THE SURFACE, AND RUB VIGOROUSLY. SPRINKLE ADDITIONAL EVENTS IF SO DESIRED.

RINSE.
WASH.
REPEAT.
ENJOY.
((Serves everybody. 0 grams of fat.))

You can have different sections of your cake, and still have a cake for everybody to enjoy.

___________________
I do impressions:
"Complaining about people complaining always fixes major issues! Let's do that instead of trying to find a collective solution by talking it out amongst ourselves as a community and point fingers instead of taking responsibility for our actions! While we're at it, let's attempt to satirize and/or demonize everybody who attempt to make a suggestion! Man, we are way better at this than those other people with experience who are trying to help!"


All RP's with Belysa in them are SUSPENDED for activity until further notice.
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Post by Etzolix on July 23rd 2014, 2:15 am

Didn't we have a vote at one point?
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Post by Occam on July 23rd 2014, 3:03 am

Something I'd like to stress about my last post wrote:
Canons can't be abused like before, especially on the system before the last story system. But now, we could rp as them but it isn't about abuse anymore, it's about lore.

^This means that this system means abuse isn't such a problem and really doesn't boil down to abuse anymore. It isn't about the difference between Canon and OC abuse anymore, seeing as now NPCs are more powerful so we can't just wipe them out (needs to be logical now) and that Canon characters are on the level of OC since the stigmas of the systems where this abuse did occur are gone. We are more-so on an honor-system for everything but the stats, save for the general god-mod rules that every rp crevice of the rp world must adhere to (hardly see sites without rules about it).

I really see more of the abuse of lore and historia. Not the same abuse as before, but the constant beating and demolishing of history. History happens, and now we must take notice. I will honestly say, I don't expect one person to lend their canon rights if approved to anyone and they would most likely keep it to their wants and goals. That is my personal opinion and I include myself in it.

The way we have it now protects the canon more than letting one user have that character. It may be better, but it is imperfect and I won't say it is. I just believe that we can protect things precious to lore and continuity more by using this system. It helps keep track, it helps regulate the use of canon and really, being King Mickey or similar ruler canons gives you a world if we abide by the lore at that point. We should have more interaction in our history with the lore, but I'd like to point out we can do so logically, and that does not mean includin canon charries into it.

I'd like to say that this site reboot means we won't be having some of the BS that occurred in the old versions, even if new BS arises (you know, the endless cycle of life always has an umbra that renews with it). We deal with what arises, we trust our members to call them out on it, and we move on. We will not be having (I hope so, I'm not the law, I'm just an IT guy) Deus Ex Machinas, weapons of destiny, relationships with fate, OC worlds, etc. I mean, I can't say anyone can't, but I just hope this doesn't happen. You, me, anyone could make something that is BS, and it will happen, but I'm just saying it won't be to a detrimental degree nor a game-breaking degree. That being said, the differences between OC and Canon are now down to lore and presence.

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Post by Hikari on July 23rd 2014, 4:24 am

And how is this any different than one person constantly renting out the same canon, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and--?

It's different because under this scenario we can actually fix the problem if there is one. Rules can be written and rewritten to fit the needs of the site -- guess what can't be rewritten? A user's personality. Sure, we can try to change their viewpoint of another person or encourage them to get along. But we can't just go into their mind and alter how they view people in general.

You can't manage user bias as effectively as you can a set of simple rules that can be altered to the needs of the community.

1 & 2:) ...One may consider...LOOKING AT THEIR APPLICATION.
This is not rocket science. You read their application and judge it based off of what you know about that canon. If it's good, you accept it. If it's not, you don't. LITERALLY no different than looking at an OC's Pro--
...oh wait, but we don't do that anymore either...

Are you suggesting we should just boot people off their canons if somebody comes along with a better application? I don't think you got my point here. The point is that new people actually come to the site Bel and that these new people aren't going to get the character they want regardless of how good they can play it. That is unless we just have it so that people can get booted off their canon -- which is unfair, either destroys topics going on or forces the new user to take it up from where it left off, and is going to piss off people when they get told they're no longer allowed to play canons. It also adds extremely competitive aspects to the site without time and effort being spent to form more regulations for the process as users now begin wars to get their canons back -- posting up application after application in order to get the canon back from themselves in a neverending struggle seeing who can produce the best character sheet.

3:) You said it yourself. You either move on to another character, or you quit entirely. People DO have multiple favorite characters, you know.
But while you're sitting there, fretting about whether or not someone's feelings are hurt because a canon's taken and it's not someone first choice...Guess what people who DO want canons who come here to one of the most recognized KHRPF communities on the internet and see that you, by technical standards, don't allow them to be playable, even if that person demonstrates that they are MORE than capable of understanding the basic principles of (again) a CHARACTER WRITTEN FOR CHILDREN TO UNDERSTAND?
Mostly? Laugh. I'm not making that up either. Then they go off to a "better" site.

And now they can't roleplay with those multiple favorite characters because other people who have no interest in roleplaying with them have exclusive access to them. Rent-a-canon actually allows people to play as all of their favorite canons. Compare that to the potential problems that rise up with user relations and the fact that only one person is going to be allowed to actually play as the canon. Unless you're going to argue that we shouldn't have rules which restrict the amount of canons a user can have -- in which case I'd call that idea absurd and point out the fact that the monopoly is going to drive away anyone who came here wanting to play a canon in the first place. Hell, even if we up the amount they can play let's compare it to the amount of canons you can use with rent-a-canon throughout the course of your plot.

Canons: 1
Rent a Canon: Unlimited

Canons: 3
Rent a Canon: Unlimited

Canons: 5
Rent a Canon: Unlimited

Hell, even if your topic is declared uncanon you still got the experience of playing the canon in rent-a-canon and can still use it. Guess what you get when you mess up your character sheet?



Guess what you get when you lose your canon because you messed up in a topic? You get all the enjoyment you got from playing them from that point onwards and then aren't allowed to play canons anymore OR you have to create an entirely new sheet again. And that's not even taking into account the fact that there will likely be time periods before you can create another canon -- meaning somebody can just swoop in to take that experience from you for good.

4:) ...No.
You RESTRICT freedom of choice when you decided to go communist on the canons. Now everybody is FORCED INTO MAKING OC's. In the same token that not everybody is "worthy" of a canon, not everybody is "worthy" of making up a character. Some people like doing one or the other! They should NOT be thrown into a side just because you're antsy.

Do people create characters because they want to write up sheets or do they create characters because they want to roleplay as the characters? If the latter then rent-a-canon works perfectly fine. If not then I have no idea what they're doing on a roleplaying site and doubt we'll be seeing much activity from them onsite.

There's a reason why we have mixed economies. You know why that is? Because if we don't allow the government to take any part in the economy we're going to end up with large corporations running over the smaller businesses as they get a monopoly on the market and keep it.

We allow people to roleplay in the way they wish to as the canon. We aren't telling them which canons they can and can't roleplay as (allowing users to play as canons) nor are we playing the big bad evil government by allowing further accessibility to other users with the canons.

5, 6, etc:) *facedesk*
No! You It does NOT matter who gets there first! It is QUALITY over QUICKNESS.
See, if you actually like...looked over profiles and approved them, this wouldn't be a problem.

Just as I stated before you missed my point. I wasn't under the assumption we'd give the first person to post up an app a free canon. I was stating that no new players are going to get a canon that's already been taken just because they can produce a better character sheet.

By the way Bel, the application process is going to become much harder when we have to monitor every single member's constantly changing character sheet in order to look for flaws. And I'm sure members are going to have a funtime having to tell us every single time they change their profile in the slightest so we can look it all over again to make sure it's fine.

Creating new sections for all the content characters are going to have so we don't have to stall them from roleplaying also is a bad idea that will take up immense amounts of time and force users to create a new application which has to be approved to be used for every single one of their abilities, weapons, armor, items, and etc. So yes, going back to the old way of doing things will actually cost us a lot of time and stall the activity of users immensely.

Having it so they can't be edited also won't work because then no user can update their profile with new abilities, weapons, or armor either. Have fun being stuck with your level 1 spells forever that will undermine your investment into magical skills.

So Bel, reintroducing approvals will not work under any circumstances. Even if applications are objectively proven to be the best way to model the site we're at the point where it would only do constant amounts of damage and will likely result in users being driven away.

Plus it's inherently more restricting and damages the individual's freedom. Isn't that freedom supposed to be the driving force behind your entire argument for canons in the first place?

I make the argument, that not everybody has a NICHE for playing these characters.
In the same token, not everybody has a niche for OC's.
Because you decided to go all Joseph Stalin on the canons, this now means that quite literally anybody can waltz around as Aqua, handing out Keyblades to anybody they feel like. Again, I make the point that OC's can be just as abused, or (and in the case of our site's history,) even MORE abused than them. That holds the reverse.

You know what counters that? I'm being general here, it would counter literally all of the issues we have currently.
PAYING ATTENTION.

Guess what's going to happen then? That topic is going to be considered uncanon and nobody is going to get a keyblade from that topic nor is Aqua going to have any experiences from that actually impact her identity. Compare that to when Aqua waltzes into a canon topic and somebody who was good at roleplaying her decides to make it site canon that Aqua is now a stripper for no reason -- followed directly by her dying of every STD known to medical science.

Sure, that situation is unlikely. But it's more likely than an incredibly stupid topic that goes against a canon's identity being deemed canon by the staff.

And no, you can't just rent a canon to bring into any topic you like -- unlike the relation between canons and the usual open topic we see.

Again...you RESTRICT freedom of choice when you decide that EVERYBODY who registers ABSOLUTELY HAS to make an OC. So how is that fair to them, hm?

Again, they can still roleplay as the canon and fulfill their desire to do so through the rent-a-canon system.

On that final sentence...
When I argue the validity of canons and OC's, it's not typically for my own gain. Anybody who personally knows me can testify when I make a choice, there are reasons behind it that usually involve someone else's needs rather than my own.
In THIS case in particular, I am thinking about all the potential users we COULD be having if we stopped taking such a safe path. Users, who may WANT to take up canons--people we may have lost BECAUSE that ability was stripped from them.
So is it REALLY worth being fair to the (teeny tiny itsy bitsy) group of active users we currently have compared to the potential of the users we COULD be getting if we DID allow for more versatility and ACTUAL freedom?

I wasn't intending to imply you were; despite how it might come off that way. However, it still values the needs of the few over that of the many. The individual might not be you but the individual is still the individual you're fighting for. Is it selfish? No. But it still places the needs of the individual over the needs of the many, regardless of intent.

Ideals and the quality of the community as well as the site itself are more important than the size of the community itself. Even if we could get a population boom from doing this (Which I don't believe will happen at all.) would it really be worth giving up what we've fought for? Don't give me bullshit and tell me that our current canon system was forced onto you by the staff -- it wasn't. Just like Milo said in his post, we voted for this change.

This isn't the ideal time to support this kind of thing either. When Kingdom Hearts 3 comes out we're estimating a larger amount of users will come to us due to hype for the game and being reminded of the franchise. If the release of a new major title truly does this then how many people will have open canons they want to play as still untaken?

The ability for more users to be able to play their favorite canon(s) then one is the best way to go.

"For to be free is not merely to cast off one's chains, but to live in a way that respects and enhances the freedom of others."
----Nelson Mandela
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Post by Etzolix on July 23rd 2014, 4:35 am

If players were allowed to permanently play canons, they would likely be subject to the same rues that rented canons would be.

After all, we would need the documentation for future support, consider we aren't creating a new canon every time someone takes control of it.
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Post by Etzolix on July 23rd 2014, 4:43 am

It's interesting how people put more energy into these discussions than in RPing.
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Post by Eno on July 23rd 2014, 7:45 am

So back from work and completely exhausted, though still coherent enough to see I made a mistake. Reading over what I wrote, I found that I messed up in my first post.

I typed: "You let the CANON characters exist, why not let OC's exist too?"

I meant to type: "You let this established character from THIS world exist and he/she isn't a part of the lore, why not let OC's from THAT world exist too?"

It was probably the soul sucking job taking up my thoughts that lead to that but that's no excuse. I hope that cleared up the miscommunication. Reading some of what you wrote Belysa, I believe that nulls a good portion of what you said to me in response to my post.

I have no problems with canon characters being on site at all. I do have problems with established characters from other Disney movies or from games made by Square Enix being used on site that have no mention in the Kingdom Hearts games. It makes no sense for them to be here other than "They're made by Disney!" or "They're made by Square Enix!" I also have problems with characters made to be Half-Dragons, Half-Fox God's (Sorry Mohon), and even my own Underworld Undead Husk. But that's another discussion for another topic.

I do not have problems with creatures like vampires, they have been established as being denizens of Halloween Town in the movie, and the world itself is in the game, so there you go. That leads into another topic. Characters that aren't used in the games from worlds already established in the games, I feel should be allowed to slip through the cracks and be made playable on site. I feel that the worlds we're exposed to in Kingdom Hearts feel empty, void of life except for the few key characters needed to move the story forward.

Also, I'm sure there's plenty of other valid points, arguments, counter-arguments, etc, being made by everyone here in this topic, but oh Holy Gaben I do not want to go reading through all of it when I can barely keep my eyes open.

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Post by Paul:) on July 23rd 2014, 10:08 am

Eno, Azmot already had done something like this in the past with Vanellope Von Schweets.

I don't think it brought up any problems then,  but if it is a character that causes trouble then we don't allow it. However I don't see a problem letting Elsa exist. Perhaps her world was destroyed by darkness and she ended up here, just like the majority of OC's
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Post by Pōn on July 23rd 2014, 10:55 am

Joseph wrote:I don't think it brought up any problems then,  but if it is a character that causes trouble then we don't allow it. However I don't see a problem letting Elsa exist. Perhaps her world was destroyed by darkness and she ended up here, just like the majority of OC's

It's likely Frozen's success will actually be taken advantage of and the world will be added in. Even under the hypothetical scenario it was unlikely we still have to worry about canons actually being added to Kingdom Hearts 3 -- which raises the question of how we are to deal with people and whether or not they're allowed to grandfather in.

Also, Azmot's character was around when we allowed people to exclusively own canons -- which we don't anymore.

___________________
[23:23:32] Dr. Wattson : GUYS THE PLANET IS GETTING HOT
[23:23:36] Dr. Wattson : "it's called summer retard"
[23:23:41] Dr. Wattson : NO FUCKFACE
[23:23:43] Dr. Wattson : LIKE FUCK YOU
[23:23:46] Dr. Wattson : WE WOULDNT MAKE THIS UP
[23:23:52] Dr. Wattson : YOU THINK THIS IS HTE BEST THING WE CUOLD MAKE UP TO SCARE YOU?
[23:23:56] Dr. Wattson : WE COULD JUST CREATE A NEW AIDS FUCK YOU
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Post by Belysa on July 23rd 2014, 12:45 pm

Aliyah wrote:
By the way Bel, the application process is going to become much harder when we have to monitor every single member's constantly changing character sheet in order to look for flaws. And I'm sure members are going to have a funtime having to tell us every single time they change their profile in the slightest so we can look it all over again to make sure it's fine.

Creating new sections for all the content characters are going to have so we don't have to stall them from roleplaying also is a bad idea that will take up immense amounts of time and force users to create a new application which has to be approved to be used for every single one of their abilities, weapons, armor, items, and etc. So yes, going back to the old way of doing things will actually cost us a lot of time and stall the activity of users immensely.

Having it so they can't be edited also won't work because then no user can update their profile with new abilities, weapons, or armor either. Have fun being stuck with your level 1 spells forever that will undermine your investment into magical skills.

So Bel, reintroducing approvals will not work under any circumstances. Even if applications are objectively proven to be the best way to model the site we're at the point where it would only do constant amounts of damage and will likely result in users being driven away.

Plus it's inherently more restricting and damages the individual's freedom. Isn't that freedom supposed to be the driving force behind your entire argument for canons in the first place?

Now, *AS* a former moderator and an owner of a collection of websites, I have to ask...
Are you telling me this because you really believe it's going to be DAMAGING for users, or for the website's community? Or are you just saying that because you all are lazy?

Because I am getting a LAZY vibe. I've had the lazy vibe since about...oh...2012. I also said we needed a reset in 2012, and nobody listened to me then either.


*NOBODY* said that the job of moderator or admin, or owner, was FUN all the time. There's decisions to be made. There's things you have to check daily. There is a REASON WHY OTHER WEBSITES USE THE APPLICATION APPROVAL METHOD THAT ZEX and ROXAS DEVELOPED ALL THE WAY BACK IN 2006!

It keeps people from inventing bullshit histories!
It keeps people from inventing bullshit powers that can be heavily abused!
It prevents people from OPing themselves!
It allows the staff to get a feel for the style of writing and the level of writing that the individual has!

And you...do...NONE of it.
"We don't wanna be like other websites, we wanna be original!"
It's like trying to create a CAR without using an ENGINE because, fuck it, engines are so unoriginal! Oh you want to build a building with a floor? How cliché! Pfffft, we don't need firetrucks anymore, let's use this BMW Bug, it's got more leg room!
Just because it's ORIGINAL does not mean it MAKES SENSE.

"Oh but it's gonna take so much tiiiiiiiime! It's so much effooooooooort!"
EVERY OTHER WEBSITE does this FOR A REASON. If you can't wait a whole fucking day for an approval, something is WRONG with you. If SIX people can't muster up a combined effort to try and get approvals done, I seriously question the quality of staff. Hell, it doesn't even have to be all six of you--it could be TWO of you: one to check and one to double check!
Shit, you have like FOUR OR FIVE FORMER staff members sitting around! Slap a Profile Mod position on them and be done with it if you're that passive!

"But I don't wanna have to check people's profiles every single time they edit somethiiiiiiing..."
...There are SIX OF YOU. If the combined braincells of SIX PEOPLE cannot find the time and effort to checking up when someone PM's you "Hey, I edited this, can you check and see if it's okay?"
...That's vividly concerning.

"But we don't always have the time to--"
...Hire someone who is more active and demonstrates the qualities for being a proper moderator?
Because I have LITERALLY received more help and tips from Milo and Lenneth than the ENTIRE STAFF COMBINED. They've caught more boo-boos on my profile because (GASP!) THEY CHECKED THEM.
((I know, crazy concept right?!))

The entire argument on canon rentals is just...beyond my comprehension in how basic and communistic it is, really. I NEVER heard people complain about people having specific canons before. I mean why would you when you have the ability to create an OC? Canon's taken? Okay, make an OC that's to your liking.
NOBODY whined about it! It wasn't a big deal! It's STILL not a big deal! And yet you make it seem like it's this HUGE deal where people are constantly fighting for canons! Because that's NEVER happened--like, on any website I've ever seen it's NEVER happened. Because people understand that they can move on!
You see a canon's taken? You get disappointed, and you go for something else! If you GIVE people more possibilities, they will TAKE THEM.
THAT IS HOW THE RPF SYSTEM...WORKS.
You want to interact with a canon? ASK them! It's *OKAY* to PM people! If people feel like that person isn't very good with that particular canon? Call a vote! Call an ANONYMOUS VOTE!

Go ahead and throw around freedom quotes, but history has taught me some things as well.
"Communism didn't work for that superpower Russia? That's okay, I'm sure that system will work if WE try it!" --Communists

You guys cannot run a web forum like a business! That doesn't work either! People who have tried it...have FAILED. It does not WORK. You can't look at these things from a "fair" or "business" perspective! It's about pandering to the needs and desires of the collective whole--EXCLUDING your own personal views. What you think is fair, isn't necessarily what is.

You can quote me on this for later on.

This is NOT going to work.
This is a bad idea, on both canon restrictions and NOT approving profiles.
It's going to bite you in the ass, and it has already bitten you in the ass.

___________________
I do impressions:
"Complaining about people complaining always fixes major issues! Let's do that instead of trying to find a collective solution by talking it out amongst ourselves as a community and point fingers instead of taking responsibility for our actions! While we're at it, let's attempt to satirize and/or demonize everybody who attempt to make a suggestion! Man, we are way better at this than those other people with experience who are trying to help!"


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Post by Etzolix on July 23rd 2014, 3:20 pm

Also, the system isn't about trying to be a different system from other sites, considering we borrowed the concept from another site. Make sure you understand what you're attacking, before doing so.
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Post by Occam on July 23rd 2014, 3:25 pm

While I will respond at a later time with a more detailed post, Bel you need to stay more on subject please stop assuming so much. We have ways that we prefer, an approval system was done away with because the majority prefer how it is now and it has worked as long as members keep their sheets in check. WHen a member has something they shouldn't, they edit. We did away with ability restrictions so members can be trusted, now we only correct them when they god-mod or do similar things or they contradict lore.

Also, PLEASE stop with the McCarthyism. This is not communism, and is kind of offensive you keep calling it such. This is not communism, and you are trying to yell the loudest to win. You need to consider everyone's points and like I said, this isn't about abuse like it was before. You are also going off topic, we need to stay on topic.

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Post by Shirou on July 23rd 2014, 6:05 pm

I wouldn't be against opening up the entire Disney and Square Enix canon for use. It would still follow the rules of Rent-a-Canon, but hey, people can RP their favorite D/SE character. To be honest, I'm not personally connected to this discussion. Maybe because I'm tired of there always being something changed around here. I would prefer just leaving everything as it is. KH-only canons possible. And if you want to reaaaalllllyyyy RP as some Disney/SE character, make a character based on them, since it doesn't contradict canon and you don't have to worry about portraying that character the exact same way as their canon counterpart.

And I find it interesting how Pinky views the actions of our site. She thinks that we made our decisions based on our reputation and public appearance. I always interpreted our constant actions and choices to stem from our own self interest, in making this site a more fun place for the current member base rather than appealing to possible new members. But, I digress.

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Post by Selene || Selena on July 23rd 2014, 10:59 pm

Belysa wrote:It's about pandering to the needs and desires of the collective whole--EXCLUDING your own personal views.”

Which we did. As Shirou mentioned, all the changes we made were based on the wants and needs of the current member base. We had topics for each issue in which people voted for what they wanter. Was everyone happy with the results? Of course not.  But the majority of members were pleased, because a majority of them had voted for things like the reboot  or the Rent-a-Canon system.

And it wasn't a poll topic where members just clicked a choice and we just counted up the results. It was an actual discussion, with each member explaining the pros and cons of each option, and why they preferred one over the other(s). I don't think the argument "It's so that we'll be different from other RP sites!" was ever made. On the contrary, I remember some suggestions mentioning, "Hey, I've seen this or that on someotherrpforum.com, I think it'd be cool if we had that here."

I'd also like to point out that the main reason we voted for the Rent-a-Canon system was to preserve continuity and lore--and I'm not talking about people action OoC or abusing powers, which as you've said happens for both OCs and canons. I remember another member posting that canon characters always exist in the KH universe, so it didn't make sense to exclude them until someone decided to make an application for them. Phil would always be in Olympic Coliseum to train up-and-coming heroes, Yen Sid would always be in his Mysterious Tower, and Queen Minnie would always be in Disney Castle to care for the citizens of her world.

Belysa wrote:Because EVERY single canon VANISHING into thin air does NOT [make sense].

You mentioned before that it didn't make sense for all the canon characters to suddenly vanish from the universe. Well, the Rent-a-Canon system does the exact opposite of that; all the canons are where they are expected/supposed to be, allowing all the members to interact with them. Of course, in the previous system we could just ask the member playing the respective canon to RP with us (as you've suggested), but what if they're not available? Or what if no one's playing that character? This allows members to bypass those problems, simply by telling staff, “Hey, I’m going to use this canon in this topic for these reasons.” This doesn’t make us communist. I personally believe this makes us more efficient and more respective of lore.

As for what this topic was originally supposed to be about, I agree with some of my peers: Characters from a world’s respective franchise would be okay, but characters from Disney worlds not present in the Kingdom Hearts series would not. And that is only because we run the risk of breaking lore if and when those worlds actually ARE used in a Kingdom Hearts game (C’mon, we know they’re gonna milk Frozen. Once Upon a Time is). Don’t get me wrong, I love Frozen. I can quote the entire movie. I know all the songs by heart, including Vuelie and the ones that were cut from the movie. I adore all the characters (except Hans and the guys from Weasel Town). And your application was perfect, just as all your other ones have been. Even though I really would enjoy RPing with Elsa, I would like to wait until she’s present in the game to avoid any conflict.

I’d like to end my post with a quote from a RPer I respect very much:

What you think is fair, isn't necessarily what is.

Even though you think this system is a terrible idea and won’t work out, most of the members on site believe otherwise. But who knows? Maybe you’re right, and it’ll all end terribly for us. It won’t be the first time an idea on site hasn’t worked out. Personally, I’m content with the way things are right now.

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Post by Ikarus/Ren on July 24th 2014, 5:20 am

I'm, wouldn't the frozen world be a new world, waiting to be discovered.......since it's a newish movie and all.
So wouldn't that mean Elsa and Anna(And OLAF) be just in by world surrounded by darkness? Wouldn't that mean we could find and free the world from the darkness, and then the would would be assessable? Or are we just going with the worlds not in the kingdom heart universe so far are just destroyed?

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