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Logic of a Rejected Ruler [PURELY OOC] Empty Logic of a Rejected Ruler [PURELY OOC]

Post by Pōn on March 25th 2014, 10:50 pm

Hello ladies, gentlemen, hermaphrodites, and people of all genders not listed within this introduction! My name is Amelia Star, as you can tell by it. I'm also known as Cool, Mika Kiyoshi, Emilia, Ezekiel Talib, and etcetera. I've had a vast variety of characters across the years; including ones not listed in the list above. I must note that though I've had a large amount of characters, pretty much all of them are irrelevant to this discussion except for one. I tricked you all.

Anyways, now that I'm done blabbering we can get onto the subject at hand. As some of you may know one of my characters, known as Nex, recently attempted a failed takeover of the Underworld. This was failed as the three volunteers making up the civilian council discussed what they believed was wrong with the takeover, agreeing to put aside all potential bias of their characters and OOC selves to decide if the message sent in this political takeover was strong enough to sway the will of dead to elect the person campaigning for the position of Underlord. Their ultimate verdict was no; as expressed by each person agreeing with one another and thus bringing about the unanimous decision that Nex had failed.

While I can respect their opinions and I agree that their words may have some merit, I ultimately disagree with their verdict. It's not because I am biased that I do so; in fact, I wouldn't mind if Nex had failed so long as she deserved to fail due to my inability to make the campaign convincing enough. I'm not angry and posting this up to rant about how they're wrong nor am I just trying for a blatant attention grab. In fact, my main desire in this isn't to see Nex get her world because I proved people wrong but instead to express my outlook on the matter of things as well as bring up the chance of bettering the skills of the volunteers and myself whether I be right or wrong. I simply wish to see more logic be brought up and if the decision can't be reversed regardless of what happens I'm fine with that as this is intended to beneficial to the site rather than my individual goals. Of course, this doesn't mean I won't reject being given the world should I succeed in this but it doesn't mean that I'll demand it should I be right nor that I'll throw some kind of tantrum should I be wrong.

Before I begin, I will cite this Skype discussion between me and Mohon. Note that many of the points from the below will be addressed there so it may not be necessary to look into the Skype conversation to get the full story.
Skype Discussion: What's Wrong with the Points of the Civilian Council:
7‎:‎59‎ ‎PM Seems the HT didn't work, huh

me
‎7‎:‎59‎ ‎PM I don't think it did


‎8‎:‎00‎ ‎PM I mean, it still has a chance I think


Considering


This is supposed to be like


One person's thoughts on it


And the way it was setup


Sounded like


The second reply was just a continuation of the first


Espescially when you look at Ander's; which clearly addresses that they were two different opinions


In agreeance


*Especially


‎8‎:‎01‎ ‎PM I personally find myself disagreeing with their points; though that might be due to my bias


And I don't like the conclusion that having somebody not renowned in the Underworld speaking on your behalf would mean it instantly loses all impact


Like, seriously


By that logic no HTs should be successful


‎8‎:‎02‎ ‎PM Ander's was considered but he wasn't a native person from Halloween Town


He had little to no respect beyond the speech he gave which faded away due to his actions


Yet the people were still intent on listening to him?


It's a paradox: people shouldn't be able to attempt HTs at all with the populace taking them seriously in the slightest


‎8‎:‎03‎ ‎PM Unless they're renowned publicly


While it is well-explained and can be seen as logical


If you dig into it to me, no offense intended to the volunteer who worked on it, their points are rather illogical


And ignore everything except the main idea


That being bringing the dead back to life







Via Cuturrufo
‎8‎:‎04‎ ‎PM Being staff, you should know who volunteered though.







me
‎8‎:‎04‎ ‎PM I do







Via Cuturrufo
‎8‎:‎04‎ ‎PM I can easily guess who wrote what.







me
‎8‎:‎04‎ ‎PM But I don't see what that has to do with anything


The person's identity


Shouldn't define whether their opinion is right or wrong


Or how much impact it has


‎8‎:‎05‎ ‎PM That's a flawed system and though it's often the way society works







Via Cuturrufo
‎8‎:‎05‎ ‎PM Oh, I was just commenting, because you said "to the volunteer", so I thought you weren't clear on the identities.







me
‎8‎:‎05‎ ‎PM Oh


Sorry







Via Cuturrufo
‎8‎:‎05‎ ‎PM In any case, I see your point.







me
‎8‎:‎06‎ ‎PM I also don't like the whole "Nex's followers would all abandon her and disagree with her because she was wrong" point


She might like


Lose the HT


But people have different ideals, beliefs, opinions, IQs, and etcetera.


‎8‎:‎07‎ ‎PM If I had come in and promised everyone one free cupcake in exchange for the position of Underlord


I bet one person within that world


Would go


"Oh wow, that sounds like a good idea!"







Via Cuturrufo
‎8‎:‎07‎ ‎PM If I was an Underworld denizen, I would have totally accepted.


Free cupcakes







me
‎8‎:‎07‎ ‎PM I know, it's a good deal


I should have used a more appropriate metaphor


Cupcakes


Are a good deal


Not a bad one


D=


‎8‎:‎08‎ ‎PM Anyways, the point is that nobody agrees on everything and that a small percentage of people would go along with a leader regardless of how absurd or smart their plan is


People see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear


‎8‎:‎09‎ ‎PM Not every member of society is going to agree on one thing


The citizens of a world aren't some kind of Hive-Mind


And in a world that surely has one of the largest populations


What with it being an afterlife


There would be at least some people who still followed Nex


Even if it'd be nearly impossible to find them







Via Cuturrufo
‎8‎:‎10‎ ‎PM Though I have to disagree on that. I believe your offer of letting them walk with the living again would have realistically convinced most, if not all, of the Underworld denizens.


I don't know WHAT would have happened afterwards, but it would have certainly given you followers.


You're basically telling prisoners "hey, if I become the warden, you're all free!"


...though on second thought that's a bit dangerous on itself.







me
‎8‎:‎11‎ ‎PM It is but the point of Nex wasn't really to be a good leader


She addressed good points though imo


And made a convincing campaign


It'd be a matter of whether or not she continued to keep the populace by her side


In truth, she would be just a pawn though


Whether people knew it or not she would be nothing but a proxy; a figurehead and a slave of Thanatos


‎8‎:‎12‎ ‎PM Used for the deity's personal gain







Via Cuturrufo
‎8‎:‎12‎ ‎PM Oh, about that


I DO believe there is a lack of prior investigation on Nex's background story







me
‎8‎:‎12‎ ‎PM You mean the Morph-Thanatos thing?


Etz and I discussed it


‎8‎:‎13‎ ‎PM There are multiple ways around it







Via Cuturrufo
‎8‎:‎13‎ ‎PM No, I mean


When judging your HT







me
‎8‎:‎13‎ ‎PM Oh, yeah.


I can see that







Via Cuturrufo
‎8‎:‎13‎ ‎PM Nex's background story would certainly be a point to consider.







me
‎8‎:‎13‎ ‎PM They regarded Nex as some stranger


But she's lived there for at least a decent period of time


She's freely crossed back and forth to the point where I'm surprised they didn't consider that either


So yeah, I think they lack knowledge of their history


‎8‎:‎14‎ ‎PM Otherwise I'm sure there'd be somebody in there who knows her


And could vouch for her coming back to life


Despite not knowing the details specifically







Via Cuturrufo
‎8‎:‎15‎ ‎PM Mhm


‎8‎:‎16‎ ‎PM And other than the civ. council, I know the admin circle is also against giving you the world.







me
‎8‎:‎16‎ ‎PM Likely for the same points: which is disappointing


I can get around this rather easily with the current direction I've been going in Nex's plot


Not by doing an HT myself but y'know


‎8‎:‎17‎ ‎PM By having one lead it and support it


Followed by a transfer of leadership and what-not


But yeah


I'm rather disappointed


To see the lack of logic within this imo


It's not biased of course


It just seems ignorant instead


At least in certain areas







Via Cuturrufo
‎8‎:‎18‎ ‎PM Willingly ignorant, imo

So, without further adieu let's gather in the warm blanket of logic and sip the warm cup of cocoa that is knowledge. We forgot the marshmallows though...

There is an obvious lack of knowledge of Nex's history. At least one member of the council seems to be completely unaware of her history and instead jumped to the conclusion that she was some random stranger from the realm of the living who had come out of nowhere throwing empty promises at people. Nex is quite the opposite however. She's lived in the Underworld for a while and considers herself one of the dead due to the nature of her resurrection. She's been living there for years and by now would have at the very least a couple of people who knew about her. There's also the fact that Nex herself was freed from the Underworld and regularly passes between it and the other worlds.

While not everyone in a constantly expanding population such as the afterlife would know about this a handful of people would. It's unlikely to assume that nobody just happened to notice one of their sisters emerge on her first few days there with no context, get up, and walk right out into the realm of the living. This is a word with a population far exceeding the worlds we have it. It isn't some small town----it's the land of the dead. Every day a large number of people die in vast quantities. This has been happening since the beginning of time; people have lived and people have died. Why would it be different in the Kingdom Hearts Universe?

The Underworld would have the largest population out of all of the worlds with a timeline of generations from the beginning to the present-day worlds our characters live in all living there together. To assume that nobody could have seen Nex's process of revival, with precautions obviously taken to avoid them knowing about Thanatos being involved, and that it wouldn't have spread like wildfire as a rumor would be highly illogical. Will most of the denizens know about it? No. However at this point it wouldn't be unwise to assume that considering the nature of this that at the very least hundreds of people have heard about it and believe it; being able to vouch for Nex reviving herself.

The point is that Nex isn't a random stranger. She's a resident of the Underworld and more than one person within a heavily populated world such as this is bound to know that.

Nex never relied on Yin. She was fully ready to prove it and even told everybody in the crowd that if they didn't believe her that they could kill her themselves then come back a week later to see if she was telling the truth. Apparently though, having a witness emerge to vouch for her ruins that idea and makes her entire point rely on one person.

Unless we're to assume that the massive and diverse Underworld is populated mostly by conspiracy theorists this argument doesn't really have much ground to stand on. Between Nex and Yin's post there would have been time to strike her down as well as more should Yin have not emerged. She was putting herself at risk by performing this and if she wanted to rely on Yin she'd have to have him arrive exactly on time before anybody could harm her; with her using any form of self-defense automatically proving her as a liar. This would be absurdly risky to the point that nobody sane enough to create such a plan would go through with it. Any second she could have been murdered on that stage. Any minute she could have had her throat slip open.

So the citizens of the Underworld are left to assume that Nex was willing to risk her own life on a plan that could go wrong in so many ways, that she has some kind of omnisense that allows her to predict every single thing that was going to happen during this takeover and the time of it all, or something else along those lines.

And even then if she was willing to go through with this risky of a plan for the sake of success it'd make the point that doing this made her appear as though she had no backbone to stand on her own. if anything, she'd be more courageous for being willing to take these sorts of risks when no other option was available for the good of the cause instead of fleeing like a coward when things got rough. If it was all a plan orchestrated by her for that matter she would also have come up with a very complex and efficient plan with precise calculations that would prove her as an excellent militaristic strategist compared to most of the dead, which would just make matters better for her.

Also to note is that Yin also emerged from the Underworld and came back to life, directly through the River of the Dead for that matter. He's not a random stranger either and it's likely that somebody would know about him coming back to life----and for those who would argue otherwise I must request that you reread my first point involving Nex's history.

There is absolutely no focus on anything other than what she did wrong. To make the best out of this process we should acknowledge the good factors of a takeover rather than just focus on its bad ones. If we don't know the weight of the good then how can we outweigh the bad and vice versa. We're just basing this off their negative points in the current system, which is highly unrealistic. I also doubt that people there were unable to find a single good point that Nex made----to argue that she didn't say anything that any of the citizens could agree with at all would be absurd. Speaking of the views of the citizens...

When did the Underworld become a hivemind? No, seriously. Why does every single last person in the Underworld share the exact same conclusion? It's a highly unrealistic approach to the views of one of the most populated worlds and politics as a whole. Regardless of whether Nex's hostile takeover fails or not there IS going to be a portion of the populace who still believes in her ideals and follows her, regardless of how scarce they are. People's thoughts and feelings aren't simple enough to all be similar. We all have different opinions, ideas, beliefs, and etcetera. To say that not one person in an afterlife that has no requirements for entry other than dying is going to agree with Nex is a massive overexaggeration. 0% approval ratings and 100% adoration ratings should not exist in any sort of serious manner when applied to massive populations because it can't and isn't meant to be taken seriously. Because of this, I ask us to not simplify the vast and diverse people of the Underworld with a collection of minds spanning from countless generations to a small group who agrees on everything. If the entire world was simple enough to agree on everything then it'd either have some form of leader already or would have denied Nex the second she started talking.

This also applies to the part where it is argued that the entire Underworld got the same impression of Nex.

No points are focused on other than Nex's promise to bring the dead back to life. That wasn't her only point. She spoke of how they should put their trust in a fellow denizen rather than remain in a completely unorganized system with no means of defending itself other than relying on individuals to do it for them, of how she was willing to compromise with them, of how eventually they would fall to oppression sooner rather than later if they didn't do something to stop random outsiders from coming in and trying to take it, and many other points. They were all ignored by the entire council. It was only a single point that they focused on and that was it.

Death wouldn't be voided because people were brought back to life. There'd still be a point in leaving the Underworld even if all the current citizens were set free because people die everyday. There's no direct evidence that death would completely cease to exist in its current form or even be altered because Nex never promised it would be. She said she'd let the citizens of the Underworld walk the worlds again. She never said anything about allowing every single soul the same luxury. The dead, after years of oppression and suffering, would likely take what they could get and get their second chance to enjoy life rather than demanding the Underlord make death impossible for every single living organism.

...

Thus my points have been made. Please, feel free to comment on them as that's what this topic is up for: a civil discussion about the points both sides have been made and Nex's takeover altogether.

___________________
[23:23:32] Dr. Wattson : GUYS THE PLANET IS GETTING HOT
[23:23:36] Dr. Wattson : "it's called summer retard"
[23:23:41] Dr. Wattson : NO FUCKFACE
[23:23:43] Dr. Wattson : LIKE FUCK YOU
[23:23:46] Dr. Wattson : WE WOULDNT MAKE THIS UP
[23:23:52] Dr. Wattson : YOU THINK THIS IS HTE BEST THING WE CUOLD MAKE UP TO SCARE YOU?
[23:23:56] Dr. Wattson : WE COULD JUST CREATE A NEW AIDS FUCK YOU
[23:23:58] Dr. Wattson : WE'RE SCIENTISTS
[23:24:07] Dr. Wattson : (how i imagine the conversation of global warming came up)
[23:24:12] Dr. Wattson : went***
Pōn
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Logic of a Rejected Ruler [PURELY OOC] Empty Re: Logic of a Rejected Ruler [PURELY OOC]

Post by WR-105 on March 25th 2014, 11:30 pm

The reason I don't find it believable that most characters would be leaders is due to the politics of the world.

Hades isn't in charge because of some plot with Kronos, right? Well, there was definitely a pecking order within The Underworld. Someone else who was already of a high position would've stepped up to claim the throne and the rest of those in high positions likely would know who would take over what role.

This is for more than just that world. There are already established histories and politics for the world, so why do we let strangers without connections other than citizenship attempt to rule worlds? It's because there used to be a point, and time, where only CHARACTERS matter, not the worlds nor the context of the game.

Realistically, you and most people aren't getting the world. During the next election, try to run for a political office with no worthwhile history relevant to the system you're running in. You aren't getting in that position. More than likely, there are already people ready for that position who would've taken over.

Both the Mayor and Jack Skellington are alive for Halloweentown.

Simba is alive for The Pridelands.

Triton for Atlantica.

The Emperor of China for The Land of Dragons.

If we're accurately describing the citizens, how can we be surprised when none of the members on site can get a world in the new system?

We can't be, because we don't deserve the worlds. We only got them prior under the stigma that our characters were the only ones relevant within the universe and etc. etc.

So, no, I don't think you should've gotten the world. Or anyone should have gotten any world, for the most part. There are obvious exceptions for particular worlds with no canon supporting it, but I don't think people should be able to trounce in and claim a world. It would take work overtime to prove why you would be a beneficial leader.

No one will care if you don't do things prior. And living there shouldn't be enough to earn you the right to run. Why would people have even listened to you? The Underworld listening to you is preposterous in itself considering you've done nothing special to deserve their attention.

The site is deluded into the entitlement that they deserve a chance to own a world, when canonically, there's no reason the world should even be vacant.
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Post by WR-105 on March 25th 2014, 11:37 pm

For future reference, since my ideas obviously won't be popular nor implemented, you were trying to convince the prisoners to elect a warden.

Usually, prisoners don't choose their warden. It'd be better to appeal to those who are in charge of keeping the prisoners in check i.e the other gods and deities of the land.
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Post by Pōn on March 26th 2014, 12:08 am

YEAH ETZ YOURE RIGHT WE SUCK SITE REBOOT

No, seriously. We should do a site reboot and get rid of world leaders.

___________________
[23:23:32] Dr. Wattson : GUYS THE PLANET IS GETTING HOT
[23:23:36] Dr. Wattson : "it's called summer retard"
[23:23:41] Dr. Wattson : NO FUCKFACE
[23:23:43] Dr. Wattson : LIKE FUCK YOU
[23:23:46] Dr. Wattson : WE WOULDNT MAKE THIS UP
[23:23:52] Dr. Wattson : YOU THINK THIS IS HTE BEST THING WE CUOLD MAKE UP TO SCARE YOU?
[23:23:56] Dr. Wattson : WE COULD JUST CREATE A NEW AIDS FUCK YOU
[23:23:58] Dr. Wattson : WE'RE SCIENTISTS
[23:24:07] Dr. Wattson : (how i imagine the conversation of global warming came up)
[23:24:12] Dr. Wattson : went***
Pōn
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Post by Mana on March 26th 2014, 12:34 am

How about we stop suggesting a site reboot at the drop of the hat?

Also, you can give your character a grand history, but once you start RPing with her, you're going to have to build up her reputation from scratch through your RP actions.

Also, it's not a hive mind just because everybody agrees. That's why there are three different people doing the discussion. Not to mention that when looking for a leader (this also applies to the real world), people often focus more on your failures than your successes. It's like saying, "Well, I may have gotten 7 questions wrong, but I also got 3 questions right and that's what you should grade me on."

___________________
Contrary to popular belief, life is a game. What other purpose can it possibly serve?
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Post by Pōn on March 26th 2014, 2:39 am

My point wasn't that making her live in the Underworld would somehow convince everybody she was a renowned figure. It was that she wasn't some random stranger who just came out of nowhere. The reason why I'm pointing this out isn't because it would make a major difference in the movement but instead because we're treading a dangerous line. Volunteers should research things of potential importance to the topic as well as the characters involved. We shouldn't have people just looking at the topic itself if you need to be renowned but rather a variety of things that could be of direct or indirect influence to the topic itself. The point of research is to better one's understanding and though this time the only mistake was a misuse of words due to assumption instead of fact the mistakes could become much larger in the future. Though the historias cover a handful of recent major events they don't cover everything and can't be depended on as the sole source of information other than the topic itself.

I wasn't arguing that the OOC council was a hivemind if that's what you said but rather that the IC version was. According to the topic, the entire populace agreed to one specific thing which should have varying opinions. Nex's followers shouldn't be non-existent. It's an oversimplification of the human mindset that provides an argument stating that people of various generations who have experienced both life and afterlife in many different ways with differing ideals, beliefs, opinions, levels of intelligence, dispositions, and etcetera should be able to 100% agree that Nex was wrong and not follow her at all. To say that she doesn't have one follower at all in the most populated world within the entire KH universe just seems illogical and shouldn't be inserted into the aftermath. Three people should not represent the entire populace but instead should represent large sections of the populace; being the deciding factor of who gets a world or not.

As for your remark about focusing on the negative side of things, while I can see that I don't see how ignoring all the positives makes any sense at all. There should be an actual focus on them and while the bad parts should have more of the focus we shouldn't just ignore every single part of the hostile takeover that isn't a failing feature. In the current system it's like saying,

"Okay, s/he got seven questions wrong. Since those seven questions are wrong we can completely disregard anything s/he did right and skip straight to the verdict."

Rights should be discussed, wrongs should be focused on.

___________________
[23:23:32] Dr. Wattson : GUYS THE PLANET IS GETTING HOT
[23:23:36] Dr. Wattson : "it's called summer retard"
[23:23:41] Dr. Wattson : NO FUCKFACE
[23:23:43] Dr. Wattson : LIKE FUCK YOU
[23:23:46] Dr. Wattson : WE WOULDNT MAKE THIS UP
[23:23:52] Dr. Wattson : YOU THINK THIS IS HTE BEST THING WE CUOLD MAKE UP TO SCARE YOU?
[23:23:56] Dr. Wattson : WE COULD JUST CREATE A NEW AIDS FUCK YOU
[23:23:58] Dr. Wattson : WE'RE SCIENTISTS
[23:24:07] Dr. Wattson : (how i imagine the conversation of global warming came up)
[23:24:12] Dr. Wattson : went***
Pōn
Pōn

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Post by Mana on March 26th 2014, 10:00 am

The only thing that the volunteers should have researched were Nex's topics in the Underworld. History doesn't matter because it's not fair to judge on history, since you're literally making that up however you want.

That's your assumption that the entire population of the Underworld disagreed with your leadership, because nowhere has it been stated that they unanimously agreed to denying your leadership. All that's been said is that you failed.

The council not addressing what you did right doesn't mean they solely focused on wrong. It just means that they thought what you did wrong was a lot more important and vast than what you did right. To use a hyperbole, would you want to talk about how this guy who murdered an entire orphanage once picked up litter and threw it away one time?

You're placing a lot of blame on the council right now, thinking that just because you think you're right, that they're wrong in their judgement. You need to remember that however hard you try to be objective, you just can't be because it's about you. You're going to be bias, no matter what. The decision has been made and you can disagree with it all you want, but that isn't going to help anything. What you can do is to consider the things they said and use them to do better next time, which is the reason why the discussions are public.

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Contrary to popular belief, life is a game. What other purpose can it possibly serve?
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Post by Mana on March 26th 2014, 10:10 am

Also, to add, you don't get to choose how people judge you and people may judge you in a way you don't necessarily agree with. However, that isn't going to change unless it's unfair. People focusing on what you did wrong isn't unfair, it just means that they think you didn't succeed and why. If you want to fight it and say it's unfair, the staff can judge it but 1. that would completely undermine the people involved, as well as the community and the reason why we have an NPC council in the first place and 2. you might not like the way that the staff judges it.

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Post by Pōn on March 26th 2014, 1:41 pm

Oh, sorry. That one was definitely on me; I thought it had said somewhere in there that the Underworld would completely disagree with her. Again, my mistake due to a misreading and I apologize. While I still don't believe all of them would become distraught that'd just be drawing for straws and overall wouldn't make a difference in the aftermath.

Also, I'd like to thank you two for your comments in this discussion. While I had come to the agreement that the conclusion was reasonable by the first reply, the continuation of posts helped me clear up things up and aided in the process of helping the end result of the debate be more potent in the sense that it will aid me better in the future. There's also of course the advice within it; which is helpful for obvious reasons.

My deepest gratitude goes to both those who responded in this topic and the volunteers of the council for their feedback. Thank you for your time.

___________________
[23:23:32] Dr. Wattson : GUYS THE PLANET IS GETTING HOT
[23:23:36] Dr. Wattson : "it's called summer retard"
[23:23:41] Dr. Wattson : NO FUCKFACE
[23:23:43] Dr. Wattson : LIKE FUCK YOU
[23:23:46] Dr. Wattson : WE WOULDNT MAKE THIS UP
[23:23:52] Dr. Wattson : YOU THINK THIS IS HTE BEST THING WE CUOLD MAKE UP TO SCARE YOU?
[23:23:56] Dr. Wattson : WE COULD JUST CREATE A NEW AIDS FUCK YOU
[23:23:58] Dr. Wattson : WE'RE SCIENTISTS
[23:24:07] Dr. Wattson : (how i imagine the conversation of global warming came up)
[23:24:12] Dr. Wattson : went***
Pōn
Pōn

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Logic of a Rejected Ruler [PURELY OOC] Empty Re: Logic of a Rejected Ruler [PURELY OOC]

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