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Post by Emilia on December 27th 2013, 7:32 pm

Removing hostile takeovers is an extreme action and one that is undesirable in my own opinion. Considering that this is based off the idea of a competitive atmosphere, shall we remove wars too? They would make for a competitive atmosphere. Should we remove the ability for any user to make any attack on a world, organized or not, simply because it has a competitive atmosphere? Should we throw combat itself out of the window and only allow it when all members agree to fighting; making it impossible for our characters to attack another without getting OOC consent first, simply because it has a competitive atmosphere?

If we're going to remove this because of the idea of competition existing in it, the slightest bit of competition, then we can't stop there. We will have to keep stripping the system down until nobody can do anything without OOC planning. Otherwise, what would be the point of removing something with a competitive atmosphere? If we're going to try to eliminate something than it'd be pointless to simply get rid of one aspect and leave the rest in. It'd be illogical and plain stupid. Yet at the same time, removing these things will ruin the site.

I understand we've become more story-based and I personally agree on revising the hostile takeover system so it's less competitive. However, we can't eliminate all competition on the site without making it bland and boring. There's bound to be a slight bit of competition in some of the aspects of the site, even if we do mainly focus it on storytelling. The point is to make it less competitive though, not drive out any potential competition. That would just make the site more bland in the end.

If we remove hostile takeovers to eliminate competition then we can't stop there. We'll have to eliminate any ounce of competition as mentioned before and in doing so will risk completely ruining plots. What if people decided that they didn't want Onyx destroying their worlds anymore OOC and all they had to do was simply deny it OOC to stop it from happening? There goes an entire plot that brought up site activity and ruins the purpose of every last one of Onyx's characters.


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Post by Alexander on December 27th 2013, 7:38 pm

Who are you to make the rules on how I deliver my opinion?

I've addressed my concerns in the video. Its the same deal as before: ignore it or endure it. But here's the thing: I'm the one who put in time on the video, I'm the one who put in thought on the video, and I did my best with it.

I'm sorry that I'm too lazy to write a few paragraphs, that I'd rather you see my face and hear my voice than hide behind an avatar because I'm inconsiderate. I'm being more than considerate. I'm showing you me, not Alexander. Rather, its inconsiderate that you'd devalue it like that. At least Mohon is taking the time to tear me apart after hearing me out. If you can't listen to the video? Its unfortunate, and if you need clarification I'll provide it to you. But calling me lazy and inconsiderate after going an extra mile and doing something I don't often do to express myself is beyond offensive.

Emilia, the point is not to remove in-character competition and conflict, the point is to modify an obvious detriment to the site's new direction that perpetuates an old paradigm of competition carrying on out of character. Fighting will happen. That's why power and abilities and exist. Characters will disagree, often violently, It is to be expected, but attempting ad absurdum does not strengthen your side. Wars happen. All of these things should be treated as plot events and character growth moments. Not contests. Things happen. Sometimes, they aren't fair. Sometimes, its outright bullshit. Cope with it in character, or perform your duty as a member and call it out as you see fit, either directly to that person via PM or by ignoring it and continuing on with your day.


Last edited by Alexander on December 27th 2013, 7:47 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Terradagger on December 27th 2013, 7:45 pm

Alexander wrote:Emilia, the point is not to remove in-character competition, the point is to modify an obvious detriment to the site's new direction. Fighting will happen. That's why power and abilities and exist. Characters will disagree, often violently, It is to be expected, but attempting ad absurdum does not strengthen your side.

Isn't it, though? The steer away from this in character competition by a shift in paradigm discourages competition. When an entire infrastructure begins to discourage it, then we're moving towards taking it away and everyone holding hands and painting toe nails.

And honestly, I can hardly tolerate more than a couple minutes of video. I'd much rather read it. He's not making a statement on how you're to deliver your opinion, but I agree with the fact that it's kind of difficult to watch.

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Post by Mohon on December 27th 2013, 7:46 pm

You expect people to go through 30 minutes of you talking when many may not even have the time to do that. If they do, but don't have the time to make a proper response in case they don't agree with something, then they'll forget about the most important points once they do have the time.

And as to what you said, to take them one at the time... I really can't say anything without finishing the video. Because, as you yourself said, you repeated yourself a lot, and each time you repeated yourself you actually add something new to your argument. So if I want to comment on, say... the first 10 minutes, but then I say something that you mention in the last 5 minutes, then my argument will end up being invalid.

And maybe it's just me, but I can't remember everything a man said over the course of 30 minutes, much less when I don't consider our problem to be THAT big of a deal, at least not as much as you do.

You're not being 100% inconsiderate... but you clearly are being like that to some extent.
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Post by Alexander on December 27th 2013, 7:54 pm

Terra, I actually did add on to that some what. I missed your post while I was expanding on it for clarity. If you want to alter your quotations and post to show or post a new one is up to you, if you feel the expanded response has fundamentally changed anything or added something you feel you can otherwise address.

I expected nothing Mohon. This video only has about four major points despite its length, with a bunch of minor points strewn between. I am saying I put an extra amount of effort for this because I feel very strongly on this issue. I stated in the video that certain events have 'killed the fun of the site for me", hence why I haven't been here. I wanted to let dead dogs decay while I moved on with life and forgot Kingdom Hearts.

Yet, here I am again. Fuck my life, I don't want to be here, arguing with people who regard me in the same way they might regard a bug in a lampshade. Yet, I feel compelled because if I don't then I'm afraid nobody else will. The changes will have been for nothing, and eventually the site will fail. That's all silly and very narcissistic of me to think: I understand how stupid that statement is.

Yet fear compels me that on the off chance I'm correct I have to be here on that side. My opinions might just matter more than I think they do.

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Post by Terradagger on December 27th 2013, 7:59 pm

The problem isn't necessarily your points, it's your delivery, and how you make demands or just roll over.

That and the self-loathing. This isn't about you, it's about the site. This is supposed to be a discussion, not a place to become a martyr. Please keep it as such.

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Post by Mohon on December 27th 2013, 8:04 pm

That, and that you're making of this much more of a big deal that it actually is. Sure, it's important, but no "it's-killing-all-the-fun-of-the-forum" important.

I've been back for a short while, but I haven't encountered any of those serious problems you seem to bump into every time you walk out of your house.

Coincidentally, the only topic that hasn't been fun for me ever since I returned is also the only topic I've been in with you, Alex... but, well, not going to dwell on that. PM me or something if you want to know the exact reason.
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Post by Etzolix on December 27th 2013, 8:14 pm

Not home, so, I didn't read most of these yet. I'll address anything later. I just want to clarify some things.

For those who like straw man arguments, the Hostile Takeover suggestion referred to the OOC system.

While, yes, did would affect some canons, I'd rather have the canons be used to do something. Most of the time, people don't use them and, when they do, they are, for the most part, used inappropriately. Either that or they are dropped / inactive.

The World Leader thing is likely just going to be revamped. Most of the issue I have is personal preference of how I enjoy RPing, and I understand that it is in the minority. That's why I called this unpopular opinions. These are all just my preferences, not things that I believe are necessarily essential in completely removal. Just a tweaking.

Don't get me wrong though, I dislike a majority of how people conduct themselves on site. A lot my issues on site stem from that. Not OOC, IC. Maybe, OOC. If I can find a way to explain what I mean by this later, I will.

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Post by Occam on December 27th 2013, 8:25 pm

Wait so you were just referring to the ooc part?

Personally I could use a HT topic that points out OOC bleeding too much.

It makes sense to keep it purely IC, and I think we should have IC meetings NOT OOC planning to that extent.

Also it is lazy to say "I addressed that" Well we have like, more than 15 members if I'm counting correctly.

Also, what is the point of showing your face and voice? Was that an insult because that was HIGHLY uncalled for. Not just for me, but for everyone that could potentially be offended. Just because you are sad that you can't do whatever you want, doesn't mean you should say the restrictions DON'T make sense. In fact, they do. NOT EVERYONE wants to tear worlds apart. NOT EVERYONE wants violence to THAT degree. Also, if you don't know this already, from past experiences, when you have the power to tear a world apart, and someone has the power of defense, the former wins. Because it is called GOD-MODDING.

Back in this novice place I RPed we knew someone who god-modded so bad, we used his name as the definition. And I will quote god-modding's term for the site right here:

re:Admin wrote:Godmodding is forbidden. Godmodding is when a character has the ability to do anything without limits or boundaries. Invincibility in any form, having impossible knowledge, and using forbidden abilities are examples of Godmodding.

The part I am pointing out is limitless power or no boundaries. INVINCIBILITY of any form. Invincibility, how do you justify that?

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Post by Etzolix on December 27th 2013, 8:31 pm

I'm saying the Hostile Takeover system is currently a bit ehhh. Could use some work or just have it so we don't even have the term and come up with our own ways to claim worlds IC, however, staff would likely have to judge it since an event like that would be put in the Historia and whatnot.

I don't think I'm explaining myself to clearly but I am distracted. If you want more specific elaboration, I'll wait until I'm home so I don't post a bunch of useless ramblings. haha.

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Post by Yukina Tarka on December 27th 2013, 8:59 pm

I haven't read most of this (or watched the video???) because lazy but I would just like to respond to the opening post, or at least the part I have an opinion about.

I don't think the world leader system should be removed, but I definitely think it (and the hostile takeover system) should be revamped. I would like to see the application process altered, so that a potential candidate has to prove why the citizens of whatever world they are applying for, would even want them as a leader. This would make more sense, because leading a world is more about being the leader of the people who live there, rather than planting your flag in the world and saying this is mine.

This also brings into question hostile takeovers - it often doesn't make sense for an aggressor to become the leader of a group of people, after having just killed their previous leader.

idk if this makes sense ill think about it more l8r im hungover lol
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Post by Occam on December 27th 2013, 9:01 pm

Yukina, I think an example of aggressors becoming kings are like when Empires of the past FORCED their control.

For example, in a way, England over Ireland.

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Post by Yukina Tarka on December 27th 2013, 9:03 pm

Yea I get that, and I agree that that is a possibility!! But having a hostile takeover resulting in a leader that is liked or whatever does not really make sense. sorry was not clear enough.
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Post by Occam on December 27th 2013, 9:04 pm

Lol that is true.

Though HT's that have two people trying to claim an empty throne, those make a bit more sense.

But I still think we need more effort even if we apply.

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Post by Mohon on December 27th 2013, 9:05 pm

Though trying to take an empty throne should be a second option. I mean, for a reason you CAN apply for the worlds.
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Post by Mana on December 27th 2013, 9:16 pm

I agree with Yukina. If somebody killed the mayor of your town, they wouldn't become the mayor themselves. If somebody killed the king, it wouldn't make them king.

I propose we put more emphasis on the world leader selection process. It would be significantly harder to become a world leader and more factors and values would be evaluated in the process.

Taking over a world through hostile means would no longer be available. You can only impeach or remove the world leader through characters voting at a World Congress meeting. You would have to convince people that the current ruler is not fit to rule. Not everyone is obligated to go to the WC meeting, and if you aren't persuasive enough or reputable, nobody will show up and you won't be able to accomplish it.

To successfully impeach somebody, you would need to get 80% of the votes of the current total amount of active characters. If successful, then the world would be leaderless unless they had previously named a successor prior to the attempted impeachment.

It would give more importance to all the active members of the site and make it feel more like a contemporary political system.

As for conquering a world, well, I don't think that's fair to the NPCs. Let's say you walk into an unclaimed world and stick your flag in. You are unopposed by any character. However, what about the NPCs? Theoretically, they could wholly oppose you and try to over throw you. Same with trying to overthrow a current ruler and replacing them. It wouldn't make sense for them follow you blindly.

The staff would act as a proxy for the NPCs of the worlds for world applications. Your application would be your platform/campaign/whatever, and then we, as staff OOC-wise, would objectively decide whether or not you're worthy enough to rule the world based on your achievements, ideals, and other factors.

Of course, this is just an idea I have in a very rough draft.

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Post by Azmot on December 27th 2013, 9:19 pm

A quick thought - That's not true. In a Monarchy, if someone kills the King, they usurp the throne and take power. That said, idk how it works in KH sooo whatever.

The rest I am honestly unsure of. I write this after reading the first part of Mana's post and this is a response directly to that.

After reading the rest of Mana's Post, I agree with everything else she says.
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Post by Mana on December 27th 2013, 9:20 pm

I'm a Computer Science major, not a...whatever subject that would be major >.> I'm going off of tenth grade world history knowledge.

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Post by Occam on December 27th 2013, 9:20 pm

I literally already said that.

But apparently, that doesn't matter.

I literally already said that in the real world, it happens. Not everything goes the citizen's way.

EDIT:

Also, 10th grade knowledge is enough to know.
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Post by Yukina Tarka on December 27th 2013, 9:24 pm

Of course, but if you're going to hostile takeover world you should have to RP out the consequences of going down that path, like citizens not... liking you. idk.
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Post by Mana on December 27th 2013, 9:28 pm

This site =/= real world. I'm not trying to make it as realistic as possible. I'm trying to make it so that it fits the new site better than what we currently have.

In my opinion, you can't do a hostile takeover successfully unless you have enough power to instill fear into the citizens. Without the citizen's support, you won't be recognized as the leader. You'll just be that guy who parades around the castle.

But yeah, if hostile takeovers really are a must, then I agree with Yuki again. If you do one, you must RP the consequences.

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Post by Azmot on December 27th 2013, 9:30 pm

Agreed, which could be handled by a judging party basing how the Hostile Takeover was achieved and the either intimidation, fear, or respect the new leader has earned from general on site history, and more importantly the Hostile Takeover itself. If a leader killed 30% of the Worlds Population, probably too intimidating for the Citizens to fight back, or not. Just depends.

That said, a Hostile Takeover would have to be done properly and with tedious effort and time put into it, imo, if you're doing something on that scale.

And someone without bias should definitely moderate as the NPC's of the defending world, even if there are defending parties.
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Post by Occam on December 27th 2013, 9:31 pm

If this doesn't follow real world politics.


Then having a child king shouldn't be a problem.

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Post by Azmot on December 27th 2013, 9:43 pm

Uh, it shouldn't be.

This worlds heros are all children.

Who said it would be?
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Post by Hikari on December 27th 2013, 9:45 pm

Mana said people under forty shouldn't have been able to claim the world leaders position earlier on.

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